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Sympatico Admits to BitTorrent, P2P Limiting

Postby SlyckTom » Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:01 am

Bandwidth limiting is one of the hottest debates throughout the file-sharing community. ISPs such as Comcast have been reluctant to admit to this practice, and much of the inner workings of this issue have only come to light from internal leaks. The most Comcast has admitted is "delaying" BitTorrent upload traffic. As reported by Ars Technica,Canadian ISP Sypatico has taken a somewhat more open approach, as they have addressed their own capping issues with broadband customers.

The complaint against Sypatico starts like most other BitTorrent complaints against an ISP. "Since a few days I have seen my connection capped at 30kb/sec for DL and Up." Sound familiar? This seems to be a bit different than Comcast's approach, which "delays" a transmission until congestion eases. Sympatico appears to lower the bandwidth ceiling on certain P2P elements, diverting remaining bandwidth to other protocols.

The complaining BitTorrent user was echoed by other concerned customers, however unlike Comcast, Sympatico actually took the time out to address their customers. While perhaps not the straightest response, Sympatico at least acknowledges that bandwidth modification is taking place on their network.

"Yes, we are now using a Internet Traffic Management to restrict accounts that are using a large portion of bandwidth during peak hours," a forum administrator announced. "Some of the applications that are included are the following: bitTorrent, Gnutella, Limewire, Kazaa, eDonkey, eMule, WinMX, etc."

Several posts later, a Sympatico manager addresses the issue, writing the effort is part of a new traffic management solution which aims to deliver fair amounts of bandwidth to all customers.

"Bell will be using the latest, state-of-the-art technology to improve the customer experience for a vast majority of our customers’ favorite applications (such as Internet Browsers, E-mail, Instant Messaging, Streaming Video, etc.) as required during peak times on the Internet, while ensuring all customers receive fair use of the network when there is heavy Internet traffic. In addition, Bell continues to make significant investments in network capacity and speed to meet the growing Internet demand."

Neither Sympatico representative knew, or at least explained, what technology was being employed by the ISP to shape BitTorrent and P2P traffic. When pressed by upset BitTorrent users, the representatives reiterated the move was to provide fast broadband service to all its customers.

Since the Comcast debacle came to light, net neutrality has once again become a spotlight topic. Many consumer advocates, file-sharers and P2P developers has argued this is against net neutrality principles. ISPs counter this argument and say that because only a small number of BitTorrent users use a majority of bandwidth - allowing unmitigated file-sharing is unfair for remaining costomers. The solution? Provide all customers with equally crappy service via bandwidth shaping.
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Bell Sympatico P2P Black List

Postby head slapper » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:44 pm

A lot was left out of your news article. Its a helluva lot more than a simple throttle.

Also they didn't admit the WHOLE rest of it or the WHOLE truth.

This is the whole of whats happening.
http://www.p2pnet.net/story/13883
Bell Sympatico P2P Black List

More will follow this as well when it hits encryption.
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Re: Sympatico Admits to BitTorrent, P2P Limiting

Postby thunderstick » Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:09 pm

Regarding what's going on with Sympatico, get all the info you need from here, not from someone's blog, but from the users themselves.

Canada is a great place to be an isp. Completely unregulated. If an isp wants to, they can, if they so desire, do something like block all ports except 80, or only allow you to transfer data between 12a.m. - 6a.m., or anything else their hearts desire.

If it's good enough for Canada's biggest isp, it's good enough for every Canadian isp. I wonder who will up the ante next? Surely it's only a matter of weeks before Telus climb on board, then you will have the 4 major isp's in Canada all doing packet shaping and not a damn thing any of us can do about it.
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Re: Sympatico Admits to BitTorrent, P2P Limiting

Postby IceCube » Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:59 pm

thunderstick wrote:I wonder who will up the ante next? Surely it's only a matter of weeks before Telus climb on board, then you will have the 4 major isp's in Canada all doing packet shaping and not a damn thing any of us can do about it.


4? I thought there was only 3: Telus, Rogers/Shaw (same company IIRC) and Bell. :? Naturally, this doesn't count re-sellers - of which there are literally hundreds of them in Canada actually.

But yeah, I think Telus is the only major one left that hasn't shaped P2P traffic specifically (I heard they disconnect you if you turn your internet connection into a big, uncapped FTP server, but that's it)

So now the landscape ISP-wise is:
Telus - Just live close to the nearest exchange
Rogers - The smaller the town, the better
Sympatico - Packet-shapes everyone

Fun times :(
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Re: Sympatico Admits to BitTorrent, P2P Limiting

Postby head slapper » Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:03 pm

IceCube wrote:So now the landscape ISP-wise is:
Telus - Just live close to the nearest exchange
Rogers - The smaller the town, the better
Sympatico - Packet-shapes everyone

Fun times :(



Telus - Just live close to the nearest exchange
Rogers - The smaller the town, the better
Sympatico - Packet-shapes everyone
AND the competition (ie the small ISP's) who have the big-telco-mafia ram their shaping, caping and black list down the competitions throat. Refer to this as well:
http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Bell-Sympaticos-War-On-Network-Abusers-89140
everything being mentioned is already covered in: <the same link i've posted repeatedly in other posts, including once earlier in this thread :roll: >
Bell-Sympatico is out doing everyone here with what they are doing. Not just screwing the user, but screwing the competition so you can't go to them for better anymore. Bell is literally putting an end to the competition by forcing it unto them.
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Re: Sympatico Admits to BitTorrent, P2P Limiting

Postby Bruce Wayne » Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:52 pm

There is another one it only serve Ontario and Quebec it call http://www.teksavvy.com i been there for two years and the service is great i use emule and utorrent and my speed is great anytime of the day with no contract and 100 GIGS a month it's pretty good if you live in one of those two provinces you should check this out......
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Re: Sympatico Admits to BitTorrent, P2P Limiting

Postby hurricanz » Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:06 am

shoudlnt' the flag in the graphic for this article be a 'nadian flag?
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Re: Sympatico Admits to BitTorrent, P2P Limiting

Postby bennyboy » Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:34 am

I don't have a problem with capping, as long as it's acknowleged. However, if these companies are advertising unlimited service, they must provide it. "Fair use for all customers" is BS-- either you provide your service, as advertised, to all customers, or you officially downgrade the existing service and create a real, more expensive, unlimited service.
Money makes the world turn. Like a game? Buy it if you can. Like a music album? Buy it, too.
Then contact the label, and tell them the "demo" you downloaded from P2P is what made you WANT to buy it.
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Re: Sympatico Admits to BitTorrent, P2P Limiting

Postby forbuyfor » Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:50 am

I think their claim that only a small percentage of internet customers use bit torrent and file sharing is bull! Many people I know have broadband for that reason only. If all you're doing is sending email and browsing web pages why would you even need a really fast connection?
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Re: Sympatico Admits to BitTorrent, P2P Limiting

Postby codgod04 » Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:40 pm

heh, somehow i'm not surprised at Bell Sympatico doing this.... although, granted, at least they are somewhat open about it.

Which is another reason i'm happy I no longer have them as an ISP.... when I did, I had a multitude of problems with them.... everything from a bored rep changing my DSL password (and the other reps confirming that it was changed by them, but refusing to reset it so I could have internet access, because, and i quote, they ''forgot how to do it"), to activation delays (I once installed a dsl connection for a good friend and had to fight for almost two months before they would activate it on their end), to poor line quality issues (frequently dropped connections). My personal favourite was when they attempted to troubleshoot these line issues, they ended up dispatching a replacement modem for me, and sent me THREE. all activated and bound to my account. (before you start laughing, please note that there is a $185.00CAN charge for EACH MODEM if they don't make it back to them).

at any rate, I quit them back in january after they decided to change their services from advertiseing unlimited bandwith , to putting a 30GB download cap on their packages without notifying anyone (at least me and my friends) of the changes. I've been with a 10mbps cable connection with a local provider, and have been more than satisfied ever since :D
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Re: Sympatico Admits to BitTorrent, P2P Limiting

Postby Downloader » Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:12 am

forbuyfor wrote:I think their claim that only a small percentage of internet customers use bit torrent and file sharing is bull! Many people I know have broadband for that reason only. If all you're doing is sending email and browsing web pages why would you even need a really fast connection?


Exactly If all my connection was good for was checking email and browsing the web I wouldn't be paying 95AUD for 20gb peak 40GB off peak (@10Mb/s). I would get a 5AUD dial up connection for that. No one needs 60GB of data @10Mb/s. 8)
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Re: Sympatico Admits to BitTorrent, P2P Limiting

Postby Mr_Tinkertrain » Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:33 am

forbuyfor wrote:I think their claim that only a small percentage of internet customers use bit torrent and file sharing is bull! Many people I know have broadband for that reason only.

Most people don't understand the benefits of p2p and torrents. I think it is a minority of internet users hogging the most bandwidth. So it's really just an evolution that ISPs adjust their price structure accordingly.


forbuyfor wrote:If all you're doing is sending email and browsing web pages why would you even need a really fast connection?


Because waiting 30 and 40 seconds for page loads ruins the experience of web surfing so they are willing to pay more for a usable connection.
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Re: Sympatico Admits to BitTorrent, P2P Limiting

Postby Ratt » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:16 am

Mr_Tinkertrain wrote:Because waiting 30 and 40 seconds for page loads ruins the experience of web surfing so they are willing to pay more for a usable connection.


Also, speed gets advertised a lot. This makes people feel that they are getting a top-of-the-line product when they choose the fastest option. Whether they actually need this speed is irrelevant both to them and to the advertisers.
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Re: Sympatico Admits to BitTorrent, P2P Limiting

Postby chronoss2008 » Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:25 am

ok and i had one of those conversations ....you want to know what to say.
I am atm getting a lawyer to fight a human rights case on wrongful dissmissal and i am on a contract with you to privide me with 5 megabit internet down and 800Kbit up. If you wish i could relay your capping issues to my lawyer and perhaps even go so far as to seek class action.
his quick response "oh your on a contract well your ok but anyone not on a contract or signs up and doesnt get one with 'unlimited' in the contract gets capped"
This all came about while they tried to sell me satelite tv and i said "why when i can legally download it" and then he mentioned a 30GB cap to which my response of the contract came up and i said i could download 1 terabyte a month and ya should have herd the silence. NOW i explained how bittorrent works and that with my speed best i can do is around 200 or so GB and that he should be thankful i dont donate and go on a spree and let them come at me i am after all placing it on a levied external harddrive so them greedy CRIA and CAB types get there share.
They want btw to take that law back so they can start suing us. OH JOY. rip canadians off 220 million then sue them. HOW ARE WE GOING TO AFFORD TO PAY ROFL.

edit note : due to investigating my contract i can say if they did limit me and i found out i would be on quite heavy duty legal grounds. Also i'd like to see someone challenge the ISP's right to monitor as a privacy issue on course with an abuse of said rights. ALSO tell them you will design simple XOR encryption into the bittorent client that will appear as any SSL would and thus destroy any chance of shaping and they will uncap you. THIS NEEDS TO BE done and im sorry to the entire net i had a back injury , i had 6 months before this bittorrent was born a pseudo coded white paper outlining a very simular system for a client to client and also a client to server relation ship with varying degrees of XOR encryption.
NOTE the magic number is about 250GB why cause for months ive used about 230 without fear and issues when i passed 250 strange calls started i stopped most on threat of legal action HARD CORE.

note instead of RSA which can be shaped and seen as it is XOR encrption simple or not would appear like a SSL connection that if they shape that could be complained against that you had paid for a legite downlaod and they prevented your purchase.
this is one time that im sure that isps have really missed it and htey need ot make more availability to there network and then stop overselling. We have some nice fraud laws here, and if you research your laws and really explain it they leave you well alone. Most moron downloaders ( sorry but most are just idiots ) don't have a clue other hten get that movie burn to dvd or get that mp3 and move to my ipod.
THE isps know that and move this way even though it is in effect breach of contract and there by illegal.
How do you get over it. DONT ever use the email in fact after getting your account tell them you never use it.
that leaves it to them to call you.
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Re: Sympatico Admits to BitTorrent, P2P Limiting

Postby king8654 » Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:45 am

Yah, im one of dem b/w hoggers, robbin oldies outta their speeds in my neighborhood and clogging not only my router every couple days but the community as a whole.

"community service"
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Re: Sympatico Admits to BitTorrent, P2P Limiting

Postby Downloader » Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:59 am

king8654 wrote:Yah, im one of dem b/w hoggers, robbin oldies outta their speeds in my neighborhood and clogging not only my router every couple days but the community as a whole.

"community service"


That will teach those ISP to oversell their product. :roll:
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Re: Sympatico Admits to BitTorrent, P2P Limiting

Postby KUCHTASTiC » Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:51 pm

IceCube wrote:
thunderstick wrote:I wonder who will up the ante next? Surely it's only a matter of weeks before Telus climb on board, then you will have the 4 major isp's in Canada all doing packet shaping and not a damn thing any of us can do about it.


4? I thought there was only 3: Telus, Rogers/Shaw (same company IIRC) and Bell. :? Naturally, this doesn't count re-sellers - of which there are literally hundreds of them in Canada actually.

But yeah, I think Telus is the only major one left that hasn't shaped P2P traffic specifically (I heard they disconnect you if you turn your internet connection into a big, uncapped FTP server, but that's it)

So now the landscape ISP-wise is:
Telus - Just live close to the nearest exchange
Rogers - The smaller the town, the better
Sympatico - Packet-shapes everyone


As a sympatico customer myself, I can confirm throttling. I can also confirm they monitor uploads/downloads, as I was asked why was there that much traffic on my connection, the last time i called for tech-support. Other ISP's than Bell, Videotron, Telus, Shawcable and Rogers are just pawns hosted by the ones i just named. Since that Bell started these restrictions (aei.ca (hosted by bell) for example) will most likely be forced to do the same... slowly but surely... an internet monopoly is being established...
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Re: Sympatico Admits to BitTorrent, P2P Limiting

Postby DADEO » Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:10 pm

Somebody owes alot of people a refund for b/w you thought you were paying for. Where does the line start?
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Re: it may come that a few class action lawsuits will fix this

Postby chronoss2008 » Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:46 pm

A) one on the CRIA for asking and making us pay for a levy to download and then threatening to su eanyone that can or does wish to share ( aka demnoid or quebectorrent )

B) if i pay for unlimited at 5 megabit that also should be 675Kbytes a sec NOT 530Kbytes they say.

Last i checked 8 bits to the byte not 10. That means at conclusion of my contract they owe me one fifth of my bill. How about you? thats 120$ to me minimum. add attorney's fees on top a that and there fees and suddenly they lose whatever they gained from me. all i have is for personal use, so with the RCMP saying they won't arrest me, it's time to have someone go after the providers and say thats it turkey's the games over. Give me what i pay for or not only will class action lawsuits start but a potential push after it goes public for FRAUD.

FRAUD is where someone cons you into something that they sell or give you that is NOT what you are supposed to get.
If you buy a brand new car for instance and later find out it was used, thats FRAUD. you can't sell me 5 megabit internet unlimited and A) have it actually be 4 megabit,
B) traffic shape my use such that the service is not unlimited nor even 4 megabit
If you have a housing rental unit and rent out the same apartment twice it is also a form a fraud, however you will get away with it until someone takes civil action which then can lead to CRIMINAL CHARGES.
Once a few of them get wacked with suits and on top of it get hit with competiton, much like how bill gates windows got wacked a few years back, it will become more cost effective to build more infrastructure then to packet shape and limit "unlimited" accounts.
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Re: Sympatico Admits to BitTorrent, P2P Limiting

Postby ssokolow » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:13 pm

The big problem is that Sympatico's system is based on whitelisting, so anything they haven't pre-approved is considered P2P and forced to share the 30KB/s already occupied by the real P2P.

No bypassing it... but no Tor, subversion, git, Mercurial, DCC, and friends without first getting the run-around from a tech with a heavy Indian accent.

Considering that I'm a programmer, I think I'll be switching to TekSavvy as soon as possible. Even assuming that they do get all the protocols I need whitelisted, it's just too 1984 for me.
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Re: Sympatico Admits to BitTorrent, P2P Limiting

Postby LD50% » Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:49 am

ssokolow wrote: it's just too 1984 for me.



I always have to bite my lip on this comment. They READ the book and implemented it. NOT George O' the future reader, think about it, what is the easy option? If you want to know why the world is so "Orwellian" BLAME THE MAN who wrote it! :mrgreen:
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