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legal action for downloading Dream Pinball (Davenport-Lyons)

For discussion of the threatened legal action surrounding the alleged filesharing of computer games, pornography and music. (ACS Law and Davenport Lyons)
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I've received a letter, what should I do? and Davenport Lyons - What can we do as a group?

Postby baraldur » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:19 am

hello everyone

just to let you know what is the situation in france actually

logistep try to pursue 5079 french internaut for downloading call of juarez

this story ended well ont the 25th of june by a court decision

3 french provider (france telecom, alice and neuf telecom) go against the court decision to give name of internaut and win (in france you need to get authorisation to do what logistep has done)

logistep method are invalidated in france
worse for them they can be pursued now for illegal action :mrgreen:

i hope it will end well in your country also :)
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France, home of good food, better wine and sensible laws

Postby Pinball Wizard » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:16 pm

I think I am going to move to France, mais ma Francais n'est pas bon. <but my French is not good?>

Congratulations on your win mate, please keep us informed if action is taken against Logistep. We can live in hope :lol:
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Postby hipraptor » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:53 am

Good on the French courts, its a shame our ISP's did not stand up to Logistep with its iffy activties.
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Postby Dynasty » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:20 am

recieved this letter today from trading standards

Davenport Lyons/Topware Interactive/Dream Pinball 3D

furter to your complaint concerning the above companies and computer game, i have recieved a reply to my letter to the solicitors. They have detailed the evidence which they believe proves you were responsible for the offence, from IP addresses that were allegedly offering the game for download, to information from Virgin Media which states that one of those IP addresses was assigned to you at the time of download.

Then then go on to explain that they offer no evidence that the game was ever on your hard drive, as aswell as accepting that there is no proof that you, or your computer were involved in offering the game for download. They then state that your internet connection "may have been used".

it appears that the grounds on which this allegation is based are extremely shakey, though there is nothing to stop the case being taken to court. I feel however that this is unlikely without some form of admission on your part that you offered the game for download.
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Postby hipraptor » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:10 pm

Dynasty wrote:recieved this letter today from trading standards

Davenport Lyons/Topware Interactive/Dream Pinball 3D

furter to your complaint concerning the above companies and computer game, i have recieved a reply to my letter to the solicitors. They have detailed the evidence which they believe proves you were responsible for the offence, from IP addresses that were allegedly offering the game for download, to information from Virgin Media which states that one of those IP addresses was assigned to you at the time of download.

Then then go on to explain that they offer no evidence that the game was ever on your hard drive, as aswell as accepting that there is no proof that you, or your computer were involved in offering the game for download. They then state that your internet connection "may have been used".

it appears that the grounds on which this allegation is based are extremely shakey, though there is nothing to stop the case being taken to court. I feel however that this is unlikely without some form of admission on your part that you offered the game for download.


Thanks for sharing this information, once again though we see Davenport still sticking to the line guilty with no hard evidence.
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Postby gazzaaa » Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:10 pm

Hi All, just in case you missed it here is a story from this site.


European File-Sharers May Find Identities Safe
July 18, 2007
Thomas Mennecke
European file-sharers - or at least those residing in the European Union - are on the cusp of a major victory against the powers that be. Advocate General Juliane Kokott has submitted her option to the European Court of Justice that Spanish copyright traffic cop Promusicae is not entitled to the identities of alleged P2P pirates.

Gazzaaa

Promisicae has been pursing alleged uploaders using the Kazaa P2P platform, meanwhile attempting to force the Spanish ISP Telefonica to divulge their identities. Telephonica refused to divulge their personal information, and now it appears their resistance has paid off.

Advocate General Juliane Kokott's recommendation to the European Court of Justice is non-binding, however it carries substantial weight. In fact, an overwhelming majority of decisions made by the European Court follow the recommendations of the Advocate General. In this case, Juliane Kokott advised that because this was a civil matter, and not criminal, it would be consistent with European law that Promusicae could not obtain the identities of the alleged infringers.

If the European Court of Justice follows Kokott's recommendation, it could have European Union-wide implications for copyright authorities. Organizations such as Promusicae could find their ability to pursue alleged file-sharers severely hampered, considering that a majority of these cases fall under civil jurisdiction
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Postby dream pinball 3d lol » Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:29 pm

ye i just love that,ive bin trying t get that accross 4 a while,what right does logistep have to monitor,its probably them putting files on peoples pc,s
anyway if any of you are worried ,dont be, my friend has addmited to having 3d pinball on her pc in writing,so if they got the ball,s this will be the one that goes to court,cant wait lol,
right again ill say it ,if they prove this then no one can use the internet,it,s data not dna,if u stand in court and say yes i did then fine,logistep the internet money maker and killer,dont think so,
ill keep you informed about my friend,and believe me if anyone is going to court she is lol,
right bucket of dl soup
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Postby enigmax » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:02 am

A little update on the situations in Italy, France and the UK (thanks Dynasty for the Trading Standards info)

http://torrentfreak.com/anti-piracy-out ... e-support/
User avatar
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Postby ..Ñøßߥ.. » Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:32 am

Excellent article, thanks enigmax, just what this thread needed. Lets hope word of this extortion racket spreads and others know what to do when the threatening letter drops through the letter box. Congratulations to all those who have worked on this, the only downside is, there's no way to know just how many poor victims they were able to extort cash from.
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Postby hipraptor » Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:01 pm

I am tempted to email this article to my ISP who sold me out to Davenport, I also feel sorry for all those who did not take a stand against Davenport and just paid up.

I am thinking if the UK courts also take a stand on this matter, maybe we would have a case then to take Davenport to court for illgal activity?
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Postby PorkyPig » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:15 pm

So, apart from offering the opinion that DL's evidence is extremely shaky.

Are the Trading Standards people going to investigate DL's appalling intimidation of people or is that as far as they intend to get involved?
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Postby hipraptor » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:17 am

For sure someone needs to call DL to account.
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby dotpixel » Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:51 pm

What seems very clear now, is that whereas European ISPs stood behind their customers and defended their customers rights for privacy, the majority of UK ISPs in this case simply sold out their own customers without even a hint of a fight to defend their privacy. If you look at the information pack from DL (if you don't have it I'm happy to post, but it was posted several times), and see the court order, it says clearly:

AND UPON reading letters from Respondents (1)-(7) and (11)-(18) confirming these Respondends do not oppose the making of this Order;


to clarify - DL asked ISPs to sign a declaration that they do not oppose releasing the information if a court order is given. Apart from 3 ISPs (BT, PLUSNet and Be) - all ISPs signed this declaration and didn't even attend the court hearing.

In spain, to compare - Telefonica went to court to defend their customers rights for privacy!

I therefore suggest, and I have already begun this process, that as many people as possible file a Data Protection Act Subject Access Request (DPA SAR) to their ISPs. This in itself wouldn't do much, but if you bear with me, hope it will be clear. There's a really good template online so it only takes a couple of minutes to print and send. You may need to enclose a cheque for £10. My ISP - Virgin Media, did cash the cheque, but credited it back to my account - so some ISPs don't even charge for it. Others might, but they can't charge over £10. This DPA SAR is essentially a request to see what information the ISP holds on them as a customer. If they follow the Act, it includes loads of information, including IP addresses, MAC addresses, billing information, and also all information relating to the DL case. The more people send those DPA SAR, the more pressure there is on the ISP. Moreover, they are very likely NOT to comply fully with the Act, giving an opportunity to file a complaint with the ICO (Information Commissioners Office). This will put even more pressure on them, but you have to be dedicated to the process and patient. It's easy, but takes some time etc. I already complained to the ICO because Virgin Media didn't respond to my application within 40 days as they should have done. I'm now in the process of filing another complaint, because the information was barely nothing compared to what they hold, and certainly didn't include all the information requested (and which they DO hold, and that you and I are entitled to receive!) - another violation of the DPA. If the ICO receives many complaints, the ISP will likely to get very bad reputation and potentially fines. If this happens, they will certainly think twice if this happens again.

The template is available on http://www.privacyinternational.org/iss ... r_isp.html

I would also add to the template "MAC addresses, IP addresses", where it says All records relating to my account, including subscriber data, billing information...

Feel free to add or change. you don't need to be lawyers to do it (I'm not a lawyer).

Remember that the more requests they get, the more pressure there is on them, and hopefully the ICO will stand behind our rights for privacy, so next time another money-making-scam like this takes place, ISPs wouldn't be so keen to release the information.

Note that some ISPs have different addresses now than those on the template. Find your ISP address on their website to be sure you're sending to the right place. Best to send by recorded delivery so you have proof that it was received. If they fail to respond within 40 days it's already enough to file a complaint with the ICO, but remember it's just the first step
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby not guilty » Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:23 am

thank you dotpixal. you have worked hard.. ill be sending the letter off tomorrow
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby hipraptor » Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:40 pm

I will have a go at this, are you sure it will include all the DL stuff as for sure I am still unhappy that Karoo shared my wifes details to DL on nothing which had a sound basis.
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby dream pinball 3d lol » Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:22 pm

well that sound,s positive hope it work,s out,
my friend is still waiting for her court letter,she had a small letter stating she should pay up in seven day,s,
about a month ago but she hasnt replied to anything since getting the evidence pack,she is hoping that it will go to court as she has everything in place for good old dl,i myself am more than positive that logistep has not got the right to monitor,they would have to have a court order,in criminal cases they have to seek a court order,it,s even illegal for the police to phone tap unless the circumstances are extreme,
ill keep u posted but boy will dl have a suprise lol
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby dotpixel » Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:39 am

I will have a go at this, are you sure it will include all the DL stuff as for sure I am still unhappy that Karoo shared my wifes details to DL on nothing which had a sound basis.


No. Unfortunately I'm not sure, but I'm pretty certain they at least *should* provide this kind of information. As I said, IANAL, but I've been reading quite a bit on the DPA and I recommend you read too, particularly the guidance notes on the ICO website. If I understand this correctly, personal data is *any* data that can be linked to an individual living person. Even if it can be linked to more than one person, it is personal data for each of them. This means to me that:

All the IP addresses that have been allocated to your account, over the *years*, ARE personal data and should be included in the ISP SAR response ! (Remember: this is how DL got your details, so the ISPs DO hold this information and it should be considered personal data!)

If DL sent a letter, or an email, or a court order, that is linked to your information being disclosed, then this *should* also be considered personal data. I think the actual process by which your information *was* disclosed should be available to you under the SAR.

Again, I'm not sure, but the idea is to put pressure on the ISPs. You can ask them directly for all info relating to DL, or just send the generic request, wait for them to respond, most likely NOT providing the information you expect, then complain to the ICO. The more complaints they get, the better the chance of them getting fined or ICO stepping in.

Perhaps it's a question to the legalbanter forum, whether or not the ISPs acted according to the DPA when disclosing our information, particularly bearing in mind the European view, but that's outside the point I was making simply putting pressure on ISPs.

BTW - somebody way back on the legalbanter forum suggested filing a DPA SAR to Davenport Lyons. I don't know how the law applies if there's a civil case against you, but strictly speaking DL now hold personal information about all of us, so we should be entitled to file in such request. I wouldn't necessarily recommend it though, unless you want to take the risk of teasing a sleeping lyon :)
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby dotpixel » Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:46 am

ICO Guidance Notes: http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/ ... idance.pdf

Interesting article about IP addresses and DPA:
http://www.out-law.com/page-8060
(in my view, since the ISP CAN link it to you personally, as it did in this case, this IS private information)
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby gazzaaa » Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:27 pm

Will be sending my Data protection request off tommorrow. I had previously requested "Why they had given my personel details to an out side body" without my permission. I did get a phone call about a month later (when I was a work), and they told my wife that they would be sending me a response. That never arrived. Perhaps this will acheive that request, as I have included a reference to DL, specifically, in the data release line.
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby gazzaaa » Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:27 pm

Still waiting....... come VM!
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby hipraptor » Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:53 pm

Well its been near enough six months since Davenport started the all thing and I am just wonderign if anyone has got a court date as yet?
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby whodini » Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:28 am

They're probably still busy counting the money... :roll:
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby Curmudgeon » Sat Sep 15, 2007 9:55 pm

Fascinating thread...
After 26 pages I finally see that none of these letters are by way of certified mail.

Maybe laws in the UK are compleatly different in the US,but no default judgement would happen until you are actually sued and served with a notice to appear,By a court. Feel free to correct me if im wrong. Small claims court at that.
Everything done so far looks like no more than aggressive bill collecting tactics.

What a pathetic situation, hope every one fared well.
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby hipraptor » Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:55 am

I think the only people who did not fair well, where those who let Davenport haress them to the point of paying up, those who stood firm as yet have heard no more for some time.
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby Ronny » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:13 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:Fascinating thread...
After 26 pages I finally see that none of these letters are by way of certified mail.


Well, the mafia do not use certified mail, either.

Yes, I think the comparison is valid.
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