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Feds Using ISPs to Spy on Internet Users

Postby Nick » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:41 pm

Having recently reported how ISPs are being pressurized into revealing information on internet users, the USA stands on the threshold of a far more ominous threat to privacy that will force ISPs to allow a wide range of law enforcement agencies direct real time access to their own systems.

Having exposed the EU’s intentions regarding data retention in a news article on <a href= http://www.slyck.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15895 target=_blank>Slyck</a>, it comes as little surprise to hear that similar moves are afoot in the USA. Intelligence agencies already have full access to ISPs in those countries participating in the <a href= http://duncan.gn.apc.org/echelon-dc.htm target=_blank>Echelon</a> electronic spying network (Australia, Canada, the UK and the USA), and these latest measures are intended to extend similar powers to a wide range of other agencies.

This latest move has arisen in response to representations made by the Department of Justice, the FBI and the Drug Enforcement Agency out of concern that emerging technologies <i>“were making it increasingly difficult for law enforcement agencies to execute authorized surveillance”</i>. As a consequence, the US communications governing body, the Federal Communications Commission issued a final <a href= http://www.fcc.gov/FCC-05-153A1.pdf target=_blank>Order</a> effective Monday November 14th compelling all broadband Internet service providers and many Voice over Internet Protocol, or VoIP, companies to include backdoors allowing police and many other enforcement agencies to directly eavesdrop on their customers by April 2007.

Curiously the deadline for consultation also ends this Monday, which happens to be the very day the 59 page Order becomes effective. The FCC acknowledge that this is confusing and say that they will be issuing further directives in forthcoming months to clarify issues such as P2P voice communications (as apart from VoIP) and whether educational establishments are considered ISPs in their own rights. ISPs will have 18 months from November 14th to fully comply.

This move supplements and updates the 11 year old Communications Alliance for Law Enforcement Act <a href= http://www.epic.org/privacy/wiretap/cal ... a_law.html target=_blank>(CALEA)</a>, which dealt with the issue of wiretapping on telecommunications carriers, and addresses the concern that emerging technologies such as VoIP, IM and Emails all lie outside the scope of existing legislation.

Clearly VoIP is causing great consternation to government agencies, as highlighted by Deputy Assistant Attorney General Laura Parsky when emotively addressing a Senate panel on homeland security issues back in June stating <i>"It is even more critical today than (when CALEA was enacted in) 1994 that advances in communications technology (do) not provide a haven for criminal activity and an undetectable means of death and destruction"</i>.

Two separate legal challenges have been mounted by EFF, trade group CompTel , VoIP provider Pulver.com, The Center for Technology & Democracy and the Electronic Privacy Information in alliance, with the American Council for Education mounting a parallel challenge. Preliminary hearings are imminent.

In the meantime Douglas Sullivan of Verizon has been reported as saying that they have been working with vendors over the issue of compliant systems for several years, although he expressed concern at the cost implications and how it will operate. Brian Dietz of the National Cable and Television Association is also reported as having said that his members have been working with the FBI in anticipation of this legislation for some time.

Coming on top of our report that the EU now plans to <a href= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... world.htm/ target=_blank>compel</a> all ISPs throughout Europe to keep records of internet activity for 12 months, with telephone records being retained for "at least" 6 months, this is a troubling – if not entirely unpredicted - development for those living in the USA.
Last edited by Nick on Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby BasicTek » Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:04 pm

Nice article.

Reminds me of my old sig - the movie/book 1984 should have been called 2005. :evil:
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Postby jetiants-tk-user » Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:29 pm

you can exclude the isp with end to end encryption. only one p2p system has it for now: jetiants.tk.

use this and you are safe for the spying of your internet service provider. That ´s it.
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Postby The Old One » Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:37 pm

BasicTek wrote:Nice article.

Reminds me of my old sig - the movie/book 1984 should have been called 2005. :evil:
Yes that’s what it’s coming to and the US pushes its laws onto other countries so soon the entire planet will be 1 big police state :cry: :cry:
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Postby BasicTek » Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:42 pm

jetiants-tk-user wrote:you can exclude the isp with end to end encryption. only one p2p system has it for now: jetiants.tk.

use this and you are safe for the spying of your internet service provider. That ´s it.


Actually I don't think you are looking at the bigger picture. If a user is part of a public network, any public network, encrypted or not, and the bad guys download packets from your IP (can't encrypt that) which prove to be part of copyrighted material. New proposals to allow dlers to be criminalized for partial dl along with network monitoring/logging could allow everyone to get caught. It's still years away before they get all their ducks in a row but current proposals seemed geared towaards this end.

EDIT: They could even use this against darknets. Although encrypted darknets would be tough to crack provided the feds can't break the encryption.
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Re: Feds Using ISPs to Spy on Internet Users

Postby mommyhatesu420 » Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:05 pm

SlyckNick wrote:The USA stands on the threshold of a far more ominous threat to privacy that will force ISPs to allow a wide range of law enforcement agencies direct real time access to their own systems.

Having recently reported how ISPs are being pressurized into revealing information on internet users, the USA stands on the threshold of a far more ominous threat to privacy that will force ISPs to allow a wide range of law enforcement agencies direct real time access to their own systems.

just thought id point that out :lol:
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Postby jetiants-tk-user » Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:32 pm

BasicTek wrote:
jetiants-tk-user wrote:you can exclude the isp with end to end encryption. only one p2p system has it for now: jetiants.tk.

use this and you are safe for the spying of your internet service provider. That ´s it.


Actually I don't think you are looking at the bigger picture. If a user is part of a public network, any public network, encrypted or not, and the bad guys download packets from your IP (can't encrypt that) which prove to be part of copyrighted material. New proposals to allow dlers to be criminalized for partial dl along with network monitoring/logging could allow everyone to get caught. It's still years away before they get all their ducks in a row but current proposals seemed geared towaards this end.

EDIT: They could even use this against darknets. Although encrypted darknets would be tough to crack provided the feds can't break the encryption.



nonsense, sending an encrypted packet does not mean to send copyrighted material.
i can zip my pictures and make a password on that zip and send it per e-mail to a friend. end to end encryption is th key to be sure, the isp cannot spy out what you sent for data.
ypu can be part of any network, what does network mean ? you only connect to a few ip adresses, this is basic for internet connections. so... a jetiants.tk p2p has end to end it is te one and only filesahring application which is guaranteeing isp excludation. it is simple - end to end helps.
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Postby Dormant707 » Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:55 pm

It seems to me that the western world is going to pay a heavy price for terrorism; 9/11 & the London/Madrid bombings changed our world totally. The question is, at what price will our freedom come? The cost is perhaps too high. The saying that knowledge is power certainly is applicable in this situation - power that will be retained by the western governments that could be used in the future to suppress people for whatever reason. Laws could become far more draconian in the future.
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Postby BasicTek » Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:55 pm

jetiants-tk-user wrote:nonsense, sending an encrypted packet does not mean to send copyrighted material.


Never said that. Please reread earlier post


jetiants-tk-user wrote:i can zip my pictures and make a password on that zip and send it per e-mail to a friend. end to end encryption is th key to be sure,


This is the equivilent of an encrypted darknet. Please read my earlier post.

jetiants-tk-user wrote:the isp cannot spy out what you sent for data. ypu can be part of any network, what does network mean ? you only connect to a few ip adresses, this is basic for internet connections.


If you connect through an ISP that logs it doesn't matter who or how many IP's you connect to they have it logged.

jetiants-tk-user wrote:so... a jetiants.tk p2p has end to end it is te one and only filesahring application which is guaranteeing isp excludation. it is simple - end to end helps.


Again read my earlier post.
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Postby cody » Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:21 pm

What a shame this world has become. Pay for a connection, and start worrying. It's gonna come to a point to where it won't be worth having the net. As good and helpful and fun as it is, it won't be worth the headaches. Mutimedia isn't the half of it. It's not THAT important. Survailence of any kind is just plain bad. Freedom is a thing of the past for the money hungry pricks with the resources to push thier way on the masses.
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Wow

Postby CiegoJusticia » Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:40 pm

Long time reader never posted and just joined the slyck community. Now I am not articulate as some of the people that I have posted on here but here I go.

Sorry if someone has said this before but as with all technology we can see that it has its potential for good and for bad. The unfortunate thing is that those who use it for purposes for contravention laws both morally and socially it will eventually bring upon it the wrath of those who hold the majority opinion of what is good and moral (whether it be a few powerful rich individuals. Unfortunately the internet has lived an anarchical existence for quiet some time now and what you are seeing is the pendulum swinging other way seeking to re-establish the status quo. The internet has been the new Wild West and now governments are looking at ways to tame the internet cowboy. So what we are seeing is the O.K. Corral, bandits with power trying to establish controls over those bandits without power who have been running around as if they did have power.

Both sets of bandits are wrong to assume either of them has the right to anything outside of what is given to them by the majority of the people. If you want the majority of the people to fight against the big companies you have to persuade them that they are being harmed by those businesses. They way to persuaded them is not by breaking the laws (though deviancy has often worked to create social changes this should only come when it is clear change cannot be made) but by showing them that those (the big powers i.e. Sony) do not have the interest of the public at heart. As long as piracy continues the government will be forced to be more pervasive in the enforcement of laws. This will mean more rights will be infringed upon. If you want to create action end all piracy and watch the laws fall apart themselves. Quit buying movies, stop going to the theater, stop watching TV, and stop listening to the radio.

What is the necessity of all these things? We have TV stars making loads of money while people are starving. We sit in our homes on our computers when we could be out working to make social change in our neighborhoods. We waist more time complaining about our rights and privileges but we give up those rights and privileges by breaking the laws, what the hell for. I find it ironic that so many of you have really good arguments for why you should fight against the powers that be. But the solution is not creating an unstable society through unnecessary torts do to selfish demands. If you think wanting cheaper music or movies are not a selfish demand maybe you should ask someone who is starving or an orphan in a third world country if those are selfish demands.

Stop paying basketball players (or any sports player) millions of dollars by attending or watching them play; stop paying millions of dollars to movie stars by going to movies, renting DVD’s or using ppv; stop giving millions of dollars to advertisement companies and TV stations by turning of your sets, and once and a while stop using the internet for downloading and perpetuating the need for such selfish crap.

I am just like the rest of you. I like to find entertainment to chill out after a hard day in class or work. But I am realizing more and more the mindless dribble that they are putting out there is not worth my time or effort for viewing or listening to. You all are living in a state of war make your enemy your best proponent for change by hitting them in the pocket book. You can do this without breaking the law. I know this is not articulated well and I am sorry but I tried my best (studying for a test right now)
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Postby Overnet User » Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:53 pm

Why Join The Fight?
http://www.eff.org/bloggers/join/
News Without Queues: Follow OvernetUser on Twitter http://twitter.com/OvernetUser
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Postby BasicTek » Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:10 pm

Overnet User wrote:multiple threads:

http://www.slyck.com/forums/viewtopic.p ... highlight=


This is a Slyck news story encompassing multiple threads not a news submission.

@CiegoJusticia

Welcome to Slyck :D

I agree with almost everything you say but the kicker is informing the "sheep" as they are referred to often at this site. Most of the things discussed here at Slyck are known by the few and the general public is oblivious. Without a boycott of massive proportion it's unlikely that people such as ourselves will even make a dent. Although if you ask the cartels they'll tell you we cost them a quarter of a trillion dollars. :shock:
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Postby Wham » Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:44 pm

Well, I guess I'm just getting too old for this kind of crap. Looks like to me when they make my ISP spy on me, I'll have to drop the internet entirely. I've already just about quit my phone service. Don't have no cell phone and don't want none. Best thing for me is to stay the hell off the internet, except for extreme emergencies. Wow! look at all the money I'm going to save! And look at all the money my ISP will loose as well as all the other business's that I buy from off the internet.
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Postby Foreigner999 » Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:47 pm

cody wrote:What a shame this world has become. Pay for a connection, and start worrying. It's gonna come to a point to where it won't be worth having the net. As good and helpful and fun as it is, it won't be worth the headaches. Mutimedia isn't the half of it. It's not THAT important. Survailence of any kind is just plain bad. Freedom is a thing of the past for the money hungry pricks with the resources to push thier way on the masses.


Next step: Biometric sensors on the side of your computer (compulsory) to use your internet connection. Expect this by 2008. This stuff has been planned for a couple years ago and am amazed that anyone claims this is a new issue at all.

P.S. Now the biometric sensors need to be made affordable so they can add it as a standard feature to your notebook/desktop/cellphone. Just need another "terrorist" attack to make the sheeple believers.
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Postby Nick » Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:49 pm

Thanks Basictek, you're quite right that this is a Slyck news story presenting our own perspective of current events as opposed to a news submission merely referring to somone else's.

That distinction is often missed, and Slyck are quite rightly particular regarding authentication of source material in original articles. In this instance that particular source totally missed the obvious correlation between the original Echelon project (intelligence agencies) and the more mundane "lower order" or generic law enforcement agencies. This is especially germane to this story, for what the military do today, civilian bodies often emulate for themselves in the future- thus implying that even greater intrusion to our privacy is set to follow. I suspect this is merely the tip of an iceberg, and sets the scene for fundamental changes. I hope I'm wrong.

Unfortunately in the couple of days spent preparing this article, this other source picked up the story (superficially in my view) and the link was then posted up by a member (dannybhoi). It happens quite often, and it should never inhibit links to other news stories, but it is a valid point and it deserves some background.

@CiegoJusticia: Welcome, your comments suggest that you are indeed articulate in expressing your views. However I have to agree with Basictek inasmuch that the vast majority know nothing of such detailed issues and only care when it actually affects them.

@mommyhatesu420: article amended and links changed from html to bbcode. Thanks for pointing my typo out :oops:

In many ways, I feel that we are appeasing terrorists more in the way we are responding to their threat than they would have achieved had we simply left them to sort out their own problems. Still, that is a personal view, perhaps political, and we don't go there on Slyck.

I think overall it is important that people don't make too many assumptions regarding the ability of government agencies to identify and decrypt internet traffic. Constant paranoia isn't healthy, but complacency could be a whole lot more damaging to people's health.
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Continuation

Postby CiegoJusticia » Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:04 pm

I think if you wish to keep eroding everyone’s civil liberties than go ahead keep the selfish notion that you need anything that pirated software can give you. If you really need to waste away your life worshiping you new ps3 than you are no better than the sheep. But at least the sheep are ignorant. I will argue another thing though the sheep are not as ignorant as you think most do not buy into this crap because they can't afford it. If you ass a poor person in the southern USA they will not know what DRM is but they sure as hell will know what being poor is. So keep spending money on useless music and games or spending hours downloading stuff; in the end will do nothing for you. If that’s the mark you want to leave on your society about what type of person you are that is your choice but that I think is very lamentable. The power of just one person is great enough to move a nation.

As for the numbers of dollars lost to the industry I am glad to see they are losing it but they can lose that in the same manner as if we were to altogether end our endless desire to buy their crap and devote ourselves to doing greater things than withering away in front of our new PS3 (this is just an example sorry to keep attacking gamers).
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Re: Continuation

Postby Christopher » Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:00 pm

CiegoJusticia wrote:I think if you wish to keep eroding everyone’s civil liberties than go ahead keep the selfish notion that you need anything that pirated software can give you. If you really need to waste away your life worshiping you new ps3 than you are no better than the sheep. But at least the sheep are ignorant. I will argue another thing though the sheep are not as ignorant as you think most do not buy into this crap because they can't afford it. If you ass a poor person in the southern USA they will not know what DRM is but they sure as hell will know what being poor is. So keep spending money on useless music and games or spending hours downloading stuff; in the end will do nothing for you. If that’s the mark you want to leave on your society about what type of person you are that is your choice but that I think is very lamentable. The power of just one person is great enough to move a nation.

As for the numbers of dollars lost to the industry I am glad to see they are losing it but they can lose that in the same manner as if we were to altogether end our endless desire to buy their crap and devote ourselves to doing greater things than withering away in front of our new PS3 (this is just an example sorry to keep attacking gamers).


Now, you are generalizing a bit too much here. Just because we play video games and computer games does NOT mean that we are not leaving our mark on society.
People like you seem to have this notion that everything has to be "for the good of society". If that was true baseball players wouldn't play baseball, in fact sports teams of any type wouldn't exist!
You have to take time out to unwind, and playing computer games and video games are how I unwind after a day at my job.
Do I see anything wrong with that? No, because I work my ASS off, and I am entitled to some pleasure.
You could say the same thing about people who like going to carnivals and fairs, they aren't doing anything socially profitable in that time, so they are wasting their time. The last time someone tried telling me that, he got a big kick in the ass from both me, his parents, and his family.

We have more than enough people doing socially profitable things, and what are you going to do with your money if not spend it on things to make your life easier and more entertaining? Just keep on saving it up, saving it up, saving it up and be MISERABLE because you are money-grubbing all the time.

The plight of the poor is not my problem, I give MORE than enough to charities every year, about 1/10th of my salary. Now you are telling me that I do not give enough because I also buy computer games and spend on myself once in a while? That's just wrong!

The poor in this country are usually there because they will not try to better themselves, I'm sorry but even my mother who was born dirt-poor has said that is true.
They won't go to the state and ask for help getting their GED or high school diploma, because most of them have this idea that "Ahhhh, it's just a piece of paper. I don't need that, I'll just show my boss that I can do the job and he'll love me!"
Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. Most people assume that no GED= you're a lazy, shiftless ass, rightly or wrongly.
I am not as stupid or naive as people would like to believe I am.
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Re: Continuation

Postby BasicTek » Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:00 pm

Somehow I think this post was aimed at me. If I'm wrong then sorry for responding but...

CiegoJusticia wrote:I think if you wish to keep eroding everyone’s civil liberties than go ahead keep the selfish notion that you need anything that pirated software can give you.


I can't speak for anyone else at Slyck but I joined this site because I was outraged at the supreme sourt decision in June. I here beacuse I'm concerned with civil liberties. I vote, I send letters to congress, I'm a member of boycott-riaa.com and boycott-mpaa.com. I tell everyone I come in contact about our liberties being infrindged. Some even listen. :shock:

CiegoJusticia wrote:If you really need to waste away your life worshiping you new ps3 than you are no better than the sheep. But at least the sheep are ignorant.


I've never bought a PS* Xbox* or any other gaming system since my parents bought me an atari as a kid.

As an ex sheep myself I do my part in NOT contributing to the problem anymore.

Attacking gaming isn't the right target either as they aren't suing their customers or mounting a huge propaganda campaign of lies last I checked.

CiegoJusticia wrote:I will argue another thing though the sheep are not as ignorant as you think most do not buy into this crap because they can't afford it. If you ass a poor person in the southern USA they will not know what DRM is but they sure as hell will know what being poor is.


Tell that to the citizens of India who are now being persecuted by these evil empires. Like they can afford to buy this sh!t at normal prices.

CiegoJusticia wrote:So keep spending money on useless music and games or spending hours downloading stuff; in the end will do nothing for you. If that’s the mark you want to leave on your society about what type of person you are that is your choice but that I think is very lamentable. The power of just one person is great enough to move a nation.


I haven't bought music in 5 years and dl enough off of Napster in 2000 that I really never need to buy any again ever.

When I was a sheep I did buy 500 DVD's, used to pay for all the movie channels, went to 4-5 movies a month, and so on. I'm very embarresed by this now and haven't bought a DVD this year, cancelled my movie channels, I did slip 4 times and went to matinees to see some movies this year so not perfect yet.

When someone asks me to go see a movie and I reply "I really can't justify supporting an organization that spends billions trying to oppress people, buy laws protecting it, and sues it's customers" They look at me like I'm retarded!:shock:

CiegoJusticia wrote:As for the numbers of dollars lost to the industry I am glad to see they are losing it but they can lose that in the same manner as if we were to altogether end our endless desire to buy their crap and devote ourselves to doing greater things than withering away in front of our new PS3 (this is just an example sorry to keep attacking gamers).


That's the point these industries aren't losing ANY money. they make it all up and they use filesharers as pawns to create propaganda that they advertise which allows their lobbiest to buy laws infrindging on personal rights.

Most people that share and dl are poor people, children, students, etc. They have nothing to lose or they don't realize what they have to lose (i.e. parents getting the pants sued off of them or going to jail in the wake of new laws). They can't afford to buy what they dl.

So the AA's aren't losing sh!t. They make it all up. They link our children to terrorists in the name of smearing the name of P2P. This is the world we live in where, well just look at my sig.
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Re: Continuation

Postby BasicTek » Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:13 pm

Christopher wrote:The poor in this country are usually there because they will not try to better themselves, I'm sorry but even my mother who was born dirt-poor has said that is true.
They won't go to the state and ask for help getting their GED or high school diploma, because most of them have this idea that "Ahhhh, it's just a piece of paper. I don't need that, I'll just show my boss that I can do the job and he'll love me!"
Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. Most people assume that no GED= you're a lazy, shiftless ass, rightly or wrongly.


Be careful... There are a couple billion people in this world that are very poor because they had the misfortune of being born in the wrong country. It can happen to anyone. I used to make 6 figures for years and during the recession in 2002 I lost my job when my company closed. I couldn't borrow money, no one would hire me cause I made too much, I was stuck on unemployment for 9 months and that year I qualified as a poverty income.

I say be careful because I used to be so arrogant that I made fun of people that went on unemployment, and I blamed poor people for being poor. I was wrong.

When unemployment = more than working at McDonalds, and allows you to look full time for work you'll take it. When a highly qualified, certified, and educated individual can be turned down a thousand times for work I was qualified for because of past salary. I understand that being poor isn't ALWAYS a choice.

Just be grateful it isn't you and hope to god you never have to find out what it like to have no options.
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Postby Califax » Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:14 pm

- That argument about poor people being the p2p losers is so off... most poor people can't afford broadband or use their money else where
- Embarrased for paying for DVDs you wanted...? Your not boycotting anything, your just being cheap now.

haven't bought music in 5 years and dl enough off of Napster in 2000 that I really never need to buy any again ever



Sorry, not gonna hear it and I am defently not a troll

I just want both sides of the argument here...
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Postby BasicTek » Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:38 pm

Califax wrote:- That argument about poor people being the p2p losers is so off... most poor people can't afford broadband or use their money else where
-


I beg to differ. Poor people in 3rd world countries buy pirated content cause they can't afford the real thing. Children and students are a huge chunk of dlers in other countries. I ask adults making good money if they still dl and most are scared of getting sued cause they have something to lose.


Califax wrote:Embarrased for paying for DVDs you wanted...? Your not boycotting anything, your just being cheap now. Sorry, not gonna hear it and I am defently not a troll


That would be true if I downloaded the movies but I don't. I just watch way less or wait until they reach regular TV. I downloaded movies when I used to buy them utill the MPAA took suprnova down. Then I went on my boycott. Prior to that they were smart and stayed out of it.

I consider myself a very moral person when it comes to downloading. If I like software I dl I buy it, if not I delete it.

When I used to dl movies it was the ones I was wouldn't to pay $$$ to see cause I thought they'd suck.

When I used to dl music I used it as a search engine to try new music before I bought a CD. Then the RIAA sued Napster out of business and I stopped buying

When I used to play PC games I paid for every one even though it was easy as hell to copy them back then.

I don't condone anyone else it just made me feel like I was doing the right thing. Now with the AA's changing laws to destroy personal privacy, infrindging on consumer rights, and this propaganda war of all lies. They've changed me from someone that used to give them my $$$ to someone that wants to see nothing short of their utter destruction. :twisted:
"The government, which was designed for the people, has got into the hands of the bosses and their employers, the special interests. An invisible empire has been set up above the forms of democracy." - Woodrow Wilson
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Postby Califax » Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:12 pm

You backed yourself up without flaming, I'm impressed

My only gripe in "boycott-RIAA" is anyone who downloads RIAA music is not boycotting anyone.

Good points, just wanted to present another side
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Postby BasicTek » Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:41 pm

Califax wrote:My only gripe in "boycott-RIAA" is anyone who downloads RIAA music is not boycotting anyone.


If you don't give them your money you're boycotting in a way (That means not buying CD's, iTunes, music for your cell phone, XM or Sirius, shit even cable must be giving them $$$ for digital tv music). It's tough to boycott such a huge monopoly 100%. But if you make a conscious effort you can give them much less than you used to.

If you dl then your stats will be used to promote more anti P2P laws. Even if you can't afford to buy from them.

I think we're going way off topic. This is a thread of how our governments are taking away our right to privacy in the name of terrorism or the AA's it doesn't really matter which. Because our cost is still the same.
"The government, which was designed for the people, has got into the hands of the bosses and their employers, the special interests. An invisible empire has been set up above the forms of democracy." - Woodrow Wilson
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And Create Something, Too!

Postby ramonesfreak » Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:36 am

CiegoJusticia wrote:If you want to create action end all piracy and watch the laws fall apart themselves. Quit buying movies, stop going to the theater, stop watching TV, and stop listening to the radio.


Absolutely the media dinosaurs will die off if we stop feeding them our dollars. Threw away my TV long ago, so my kids grew up without it, to their great benefit. Dump monopoly media ASAP. It also helps to:

Create music, theatre, and films.

Listen to, and help your friends produce their creative works.

Create networks to circulate creative works over which you and your friends have full legal authority.

Have life experiences that you can write about, film, and actually directly experience.
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