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File sharing and copyright 101. Part 2. Court procedures, ev

Postby bobb » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:33 am

This is continuation of my quest in clarifying the law... the beginning is here: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=60124

From what I've read here it seems that a copyright infrigement in case of downloading a single video from P2P network is a civil court matter and that it is somewhat simplified. Hence the evidence against defendant will not need to be too trusted (but appear to be from competent source - or whatever the judge will accept as credible). Is that right?

So for your defence if you want to demonstrate that the downloading never happen - will a not too credible evidence be accepted (I mean - the defence and prosecution sides pieces of evidence - can they be equally non-credible? or one side has upper hand here)?

I understand - judge will most likely to rule on what is found in english law - balance of probabilities. Is that right?

Who tells judge what is more and what is less probable in cases involving latest complicated technologies? (like - nobody - he/she will rule as feels comfortable, or there is a 'think tank' for the UK judges who maintain 'guidelines') ?

[I am still serious here - P2P although is easy to use but is quite complicated technically. so bugs or intended malice can bring a lot of side-effects which might be not obvious even to a seasoned networking engineer not to say to an old geezer in a weird wig..]
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Re: File sharing and copyright 101. Part 2. Court procedures

Postby MrFredPFL » Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:29 am

perhaps the issue here is your understanding of these threatened lawsuits. no one, as far as i'm aware, is being threatened on the grounds that they downloaded copyrighted material.

the nature of bittorrent is that if u are downloading, u are also uploading, and that is the problem.

uploading = distribution. uploading something u don't have the right to distribute is the basis of these threats.
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Re: File sharing and copyright 101. Part 2. Court procedures

Postby ejonesss » Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:45 pm

MrFredPFL wrote:perhaps the issue here is your understanding of these threatened lawsuits. no one, as far as i'm aware, is being threatened on the grounds that they downloaded copyrighted material.

the nature of bittorrent is that if u are downloading, u are also uploading, and that is the problem.

uploading = distribution. uploading something u don't have the right to distribute is the basis of these threats.



do you have to upload an entire copy i.e a 1 to 1 ratio or can you get away with hit and run?

i am protected better i use vpn and as soon as the download completes i immediately stop the torrent so i never get a 1 to 1 ratio (hit and run) i use tpb who does not enforce ratios.
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Re: File sharing and copyright 101. Part 2. Court procedures

Postby MrFredPFL » Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:05 pm

ejonesss wrote:do you have to upload an entire copy i.e a 1 to 1 ratio or can you get away with hit and run?


that's for the courts to decide.
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Re: File sharing and copyright 101. Part 2. Court procedures

Postby DukePPUk » Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:31 pm

At the moment downloading stuff without permission is still illegal. But it is rather hard to prove it happened, and hard to prove significant damages/loss.

In order to infringe copyright, you have to copy / communicate to the public, a "substantial amount" of the work (which looks at quality not quantity). No one knows how much of a file will need to have been uploaded to count for an infringement; the copyright trolls argue that uploading any one piece is enough, defendants will be arguing that all of it needs to be uploaded. The download ratio might be relevant to the issue of damages, but this would all have to be argued in court.

In terms of evidence; the balance of probabilities thing means that the judge has to decide if it is more likely than not that the claimant's (copyright owner's) story is correct - i.e. that the defendant committed copyright infringement. Evidence that is from an unreliable witness, or is hearsay, can be given lower weighting. As there have been no contested cases on this yet, we don't really know what sort of evidence will be needed. As with the DEAct stuff going on, copyright lobby groups are claiming that an IP address and the word of a monitoring company is enough, whereas consumer protection groups say that isn't nearly enough.
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Re: File sharing and copyright 101. Part 2. Court procedures

Postby bobb » Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:27 pm

Thanks.. I am curious.. The speed cameras must be setup and calibrated to some legal requirements so the pics can be admitted in court (right?). biological samples from crime scene must be collected and stored according to very strict procedures.. how come random people (I picture the guy from the City morgue in Men in Black movie - the one who was killing cockroaches and then had been stuck to the ceiling- a greasy hair pimpled loser in thick glasses) just collect huge amount of numbers and the carry it in a plane file and pose it as an evidence..

I can generate loads of ip addresses just to make my point. I can add some by hand to make my profits fatter, or I can have a personal revenge sticking someones IP address in that file.... like a million ways to abuse contaminate and plain fake these things... what the f@ck?
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Re: File sharing and copyright 101. Part 2. Court procedures

Postby DukePPUk » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:07 pm

Evidence has to be reliable. My understanding is that the police and other criminal investigators have all sorts of procedures to follow on the basis that if they are all followed, the evidence is presumed to be reliable rather than that it is presumed not reliable if the procedures aren't followed.

Anyone can present evidence, but then the other side has the opportunity to cross-examine the witnesses/question the evidence, so if they can poke enough holes in it, it won't be worth much - the court will give different weight to different evidence depending on how reliable it appears to be.
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Re: File sharing and copyright 101. Part 2. Court procedures

Postby bobb » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:28 pm

My understanding is that the police and other criminal investigators have all sorts of procedures to follow on the basis that if they are all followed
I am asking specifically in the case of golden eye and bendOver. as long as I understood from the thread dedicated to them - they use some sort of loners with faint IT background (independent experts they called or what?) whose pics I saw - they look like wankers really.. who can trust people like them?
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