Acer: Vista is an excuse for Microsoft price increases

[MrFredPFL]

if you knew who i was then you'd not need ask that

don't quit your day job

[Fartingbob]

This really makes me laugh. If slyck had a comedy forum, this would have to be moved there.

MS is a business. It has shareholders. Shareholders have the final say in general plans because they own the company. Shareholders generally want what is best financially (long and short term) for the company.

Locking out consumers from using 90% of files on their PC using any program simply because the person that made them didnt put on DRM or a license would be a stupid decision.

If Ms were to lock things down so much (in colaberation with hardware companies that also have the same shareholder issue as MS) then very quickly shareholders would realise this is financial suicide and demand change. No businesses would want it, and MS isnt that dumb to not know that fact.

[thejynxed]

1) Vista is including a revised networking stack. This networking stack includes an IPV6 protocol that traces physical location of an IP address and allows anyone on the other side of that address see where that IP address is located, and who it is assigned to. Have fun using p2p with that one :) This goes far beyond using Whois data to see who owns an IP. There will be no more excuses for who really had a dynamic address or not when the RIAA sues you. This protocol bypasses NAT, etc and also tags on local LAN IP addressing information to the public IPv6 address, so yes, they will know exactly what machine on the network it is.

2) Unsigned drivers will not run in Vista. No more virtual devices. No more Omega Drivers, NGO Drivers, etc. Microsoft controls what hardware and software you get to install. They do this by extorting companies into paying a yearly fee to have their drivers "signed" and keep them "signed".

3) The Vista license states, and has been confirmed by Microsoft, that you may install Vista one time on one machine, and that you may reinstall it exactly one time using the same license on that same machine or by transfering it to a new machine. Outside the event of catasrophic machine failure, MS will not issue you permission to reinstall more than that one time, even by phone. You must purchase a new license.

Vista licensing is tied to the motherboard of the computer it is installed on. That is "THE" base component that decides if you get to reinstall or not. If you want to upgrade your computer after already having to reinstall once? Too bad, you have to buy a new license, as Microsoft considers a new motherboard to be a new computer. For Enterprise/VLK clients, other hardware that can cause Vista to need "re-activated" include changing a hard drive.

As they say, "One license, one device."

4) DRM. Books can be written about this, and have. Vista takes it to a whole new level. I don't think I need to explain to you what DRM is and why it is bad for you.

5) User Account Control or UAC. Do you honestly need Microsoft to decide for you if you are even allowed to change the time on the computer? Some of us resent being treated like idiots. 'Nuff said.

6) Phoning home. Vista will and as the Betas and RCs have proven, phone home constantly. It will inventory your hardware and software, and convey that information back to Microsoft and other parties. This information will include program installation status, program settings, directory contents information, MRU information, registry information, TEMP folder contents, cache contents, "Program Files" contents, browser history, cookie file contents, creation, access and modification times, your license key, etc.

System Event Logs are transfered back to MS for analysis. Encrypted and DRM'd files are given a special flag by the OS, that make them easier to track across various storage devices. Vista contains a whitelist and blacklist of software of what it is allowed and forbidden to run. This list is updated constantly, and is controlled by Microsoft. Windows XP already does some of these things, but not to the extent that Vista does them.

Oh, did I mention it does this without informing you or asking for permission?

7) People mistakenly think it is going to be easy to use "VLKs" to pirate Vista like they did with 2k and XP. This is no longer the case, as you will see in the info I provide below. Basically, this means that VLKs are useless without the licensing server to go with them.

Here is some detailed information about this subject, straight from the monopolist's mouth:

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Volume Activation 2.0

Volume Activation 2.0 is a new requirement in Windows Vista and Windows Server “Longhorn” requiring activation of each Windows Vista or Windows Server “Longhorn” license acquired under a volume licensing agreement. When designing and building the new volume activation technologies, Microsoft focused on two goals: first, to close significant piracy loopholes (volume license keys represent the majority of keys involved in Windows piracy); and second, to improve the volume customer experience. Volume Activation 2.0 is designed to provide increased protection and management of customer volume license keys in managed and non-managed environments as well as provide flexible deployment options for customers. The process is transparent for end users, and the Volume Activation 2.0 solution works in a variety of customer environments. It enables the following:
•   Enhanced volume key protection
–   Centralized management and protection of volume license keys
–   Lower probability of keys leaking
–   Less risk of re-keying entire organization
•   Flexible deployment options
–   Comprehensive range of product activation options
–   Robust and scalable solution
–   Centralized and controllable infrastructure
–   No end-user involvement needed
•   Peace of mind
–   Better security checking for genuine software
–   Clear road map to future software asset management tools
–   Transparent Microsoft privacy policy on activations

Volume Activation 2.0 provides a simple and security-enhanced activation experience for enterprise customers, while addressing issues associated with volume licensing in previous versions of Windows and reducing risks of leakage to both Microsoft and its customers. Volume Activation 2.0 will provide system administrators with the ability to centrally manage and protect product keys, as well as several flexible deployment options to activate the computers in their environment no matter what the size. forwarding the future, it will provide the basis for an easy-to-use, comprehensive, integrated activation process that will support Microsoft and third-party applications. It is also the starting point for a strong software asset management system that will deliver immediate and future benefits.

Volume Activation 2.0 Options
This section describes each activation method and provides information to help organizations decide which method best suits their systems’ requirements. There are two types of keys that can be used with Volume Activation 2.0, and three ways to activate client PCs:
1.   Multiple Activation Key (MAK)
a.   MAK Proxy Activation
b.   MAK Independent Activation
2.   Key Management Service (KMS) Key

Multiple Activation Key
All customers who have valid license agreements with Microsoft are eligible to receive a MAK (pronounced ‘mack’) key with a limited number of activations associated to it. Each MAK can activate a specific number of machines and behaves much like a traditional retail activation key, requiring activation with Microsoft but allowing multiple activations. They may be used to activate any volume edition of Windows Vista.

The MAK may be obtained from MVLS or eOpen (depending on the user’s volume licensing program). As each machine contacts a Microsoft activation server, the allowed activation count is decremented. Activation may be performed over the Internet or by telephone. Users may check the number of remaining activations online and request additional activations as needed.
Advantages of MAK activation include the ability to automate key assignment and activation, availability of online reports regarding key utilization via Microsoft Operations Manager (MOM) or special deployment tools provided, and no requirement to periodically renew activation. Additional requirements include the need to request additional activations when the number of activations passes the preset limit, the need to manage the installation of MAK keys (automated by Business Desktop Deployment (BDD) 2007), and the potential need to manually activate systems using a telephone when no Internet connection is available.

There are two ways to activate machines using a MAK key:
a.   MAK Proxy Activation is a scalable solution that enables a centralized activation request on behalf of multiple machines with one machine connected to Microsoft.
b.   MAK Independent Activation requires that each machine individually connect and activate against Microsoft.

Key Management Service Key
A KMS Key is used to enable the Key Management Service on a machine controlled by an organization’s IT professional. KMS usage is targeted for managed environments where more than 25 machines are consistently connected to the organization’s network. Machines running Windows Vista activate by connecting to a central Windows Vista client or Windows Server “Longhorn” running the KMS service.

After initializing KMS, the KMS activation infrastructure is self-maintaining. Users can install a KMS key and enable the KMS service on Windows Vista systems or on systems running Microsoft Windows Server “Longhorn”. The KMS service can also easily be co-hosted with other services on the same machine. There is no extra software to download or install. Microsoft is developing a solution to support KMS on Windows Server 2003, with availability scheduled for spring 2007. A single KMS service can support hundreds of thousands of KMS clients. It is expected that most organizations will be able to operate with just two KMS machines for their entire infrastructure (one main KMS machine and one backup machine for redundancy).

A KMS service must have at least 25 physical Windows Vista clients or five physical Windows Server “Longhorn” servers connect to it before any can activate (note that virtual clients do not count toward the 25). Clients must renew their activation by connecting to the KMS machine, which is a local machine, at least once every 180 days to stay activated. Clients not yet activated will attempt to connect with the KMS service every two hours (value configurable). Once activated, they will attempt to renew their activation (locally) every seven days (value configurable) and if successful will renew their 180-day activation life span.

Clients locate the KMS service using one of the two methods:
•   Auto-Discovery, in which a client machine uses domain name service records to automatically locate a local KMS service.
•   Direct-connection, where a user enters the machine name and port where the KMS service resides on their network.

Clients have a 30-day grace period to complete activation. Clients not activated within this time period will go into Reduced Functionality Mode (RFM), which is described later in this paper.
As mentioned above, machines activated with KMS periodically try to renew their activation. If they are unable to connect to a KMS machine for more than 180 days, they enter a 30-day grace period, after which they enter RFM until a connection can be made with a KMS machine, or until a MAK is installed and the system is activated online or via telephone. This feature prevents systems that have been removed from the organization from functioning indefinitely without adequate license coverage.

Machines operating in virtual machine environments can be activated using KMS but do not contribute to the required 25 machine minimum for KMS activation.
Deciding Which Volume Activation Method to Use
There are five key steps in deciding which Volume Activation 2.0 methods should be used in a particular environment. The first is preparation: understanding Volume Activation 2.0 using the Business Desktop Deployment guide, understanding how target environments are configured, and understanding how the users will connect to the network. The second step is to map computers to Volume Activation 2.0 solutions. For example, in environments where there are fewer than 25 clients, or in situations where client PCs do not connect to the network for more than 210 days, MAK Proxy or MAK Independent are the preferred solutions. The third step is to install KMS to ensure activation for any machines without a MAK. The fourth step is to set up reporting for ongoing maintenance and troubleshooting as needed. These reports can be generated by the provided MOM pack or Volume Activation Management Tool, as well as any third party application. The last step is to prepare the support center by making sure support scripts are available to the Help Desk. For example, steps to convert from KMS to MAK, and handle activation warning messages as included in the BDD guide.
As with Windows XP, customers can still purchase pre-installed and pre-activated OEM SKUs from their OEM of choice. Unless re-imaged, these PCs do not require further activation.
While these new methods for activating volume licensed products may require some additional planning and management, each method provides its own benefits and advantages.

Better Software Compliance
Administrators will be able to generate reports on Windows Vista Volume Activation 2.0 using a provided reporting tool, a Microsoft Operations Manager pack, or non-Microsoft license auditing tools. These tools utilize published properties and events. By knowing the number of activated machines in their environment, administrators can monitor volume activations and know when to request additional activations. Information on how to request additional activations may be found on MVLS and eOpen.

Better License Management Tools
Using the BDD 2007 best-practice methodology and tools, which include full technical guidance on Volume Activation 2.0, administrators can prepare reference systems for image capture. Windows can be activated using scripts after systems are imaged, providing automation of activation and reducing administrative effort. These new capabilities allow better control of activation keys.

It is recommended that businesses consider additional planning to support deployment with either the KMS or MAK solutions; however, once configured the overhead required to manage either solution should be minimal. Some early adopters of this technology have seen additional benefits to both solutions beyond the improvements in activation. These include improved tracking of installations, the opportunity the required checkback for KMS activated systems offers for IT departments to touch the systems at predictable intervals, and improved anti-tampering technology.


And no, they didn't forget the OEM bypass of this either:

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Windows OEM Activation

OEM Activation for Windows Vista is a software protection technology for the Windows Vista operating system that improves upon System-Locked Preinstallation, which is available for Microsoft Windows XP operating systems. OEM Activation helps prevent the copying of legitimately licensed Windows Vista software onto non-licensed computers by associating the Windows operating system to the firmware of the physical computer.

In Windows XP, Microsoft started an initiative in the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) channel called System-Locked Preinstallation, to combat illegally installed copies of Windows while at the same time allowing OEMs to pre-activate Windows machines on the factory floor. OEM Activation for Windows Vista improves on this initiative, making the process easier for OEMs and making it much harder for pirates to crack the system by ensuring that Windows Vista SKUs licensed to an OEM will function only on that OEM’s hardware. With this innovation, counterfeiters attempting to use Windows media improperly will be unable to install and activate the product using media intended for recovery and reinstall that is distributed by an OEM.

Advantages of OEM activation include persistent activation, activation without connecting to any activation provider, and the ability for OEMs to use custom media images. (The recovery media is also activated.) Additional requirements for the customer are the need to maintain recovery media specific to each OEM system configuration versus having a generic image to use across all hardware.

It is important to note that organizations can also provide system images created from volume license media for an OEM to image; however, these systems must be activated either by retail or volume activation options discussed later in this document.

I think that is enough food for thought for the moment. Anyone still salivating to go out and lay down that large pile of cash for Vista?

[TorrentMama]

MS is a business. It has shareholders. Shareholders have the final say in general plans because they own the company.

Shareholders have a say in next to nothing. Shareholders vote on trival things, lets see the last shareholder absentee balot I recived asked token things like- 1. Boardmembers should have no managerial duties. - yes or no- and whatelse was on there, some question about a salary cap for CEO.

Shareholders have nothing to do with day to day operations, just ask Enron investors.

[webe3]

I'm curious how MS will fair with their new OS and sales. I don't think this is going to go as well as they had hoped. :roll:

Well if people buy this, I think they are out of their freakin minds!

I don't think it will sell well at that price!

If they actually pay that kind of money to BUY this OS, then they are clueless as to what it will do. That being said, I think the majority of vista OS, will be on new computers that people buy from a store like best buy.

But there is ALWAYS a good reformat and putting on a decent OS that can fix that problem for the people whose computer it already came on......

[Maestro120]

1)
2) Unsigned drivers will not run in Vista. No more virtual devices. No more Omega Drivers, NGO Drivers, etc. Microsoft controls what hardware and software you get to install. They do this by extorting companies into paying a yearly fee to have their drivers "signed" and keep them "signed".

Ahem

Unsigned Drivers will not work on 64bit versions of Vista.

With the 32 bit version one needs merely to access Admin privileges to install unsigned Drivers. Not that it matters anyway. I fully expect that Vista will be hacked to kingdomcome by this time next year allowing workarounds for all your favorite emulators and stuff. Peace.

[Dormant707]

Jynx - your post was a very good and informative one. I found it very interesting regarding the VLK and OEM licensing setup. I think that MS are determined to stamp out piracy of Windows. I just wonder though, in reality if MS will follow through with their plans with regards to policy of one transfer per device?

As for myself - I will not be going the Vista route, thus my decision to go the Linux route. I must admit, I have grown to love Linux. Gaming is no longer a major past time for me - I don't get the time to play anymore. Games are the only reason for my retention of Win XP (my pirated version of Win XP). I still play the odd old game like StarCraft and I still play GTA - all of them. And I can see Win XP game players being catered for, for quite a long time to come - at least the next 5 years. And by then who knows where Linux will be with gaming?

[webe3]

Umm, let me understand this......

A cooperation makes a massive investment to bring out their (as they see it) best ever product and they are being questioned on the price hike?

This may come as a revelation to acer types, Microsoft is a money making entity NOT a charity!

The same argument could be levelled at ANY product by any cooperate company with a return on investment price hike.

I will never need or want Vista but I have been testing it ever since the code hit the net years back, friends close and enemies closer and all that.

The Vista bashing is the same as the XP bashing was way back. Vista will be a massive success, M$ do not loose money they make it, mountains of it!

Sure Vista will be full of holes and for the time being all the new ones found will be all over the news, sound familiar?

Ummmm.....OK......I think you are out of your mind if you that that this is comparable to XP. XP had the phone home option.....and it was bad...but it NEVER had the DRM vista does....nor did it have the TWO TIMES INSTALL USE it now has! You could install it as many times as you wanted.


So tell me, you don't think people are gonna start lawsuits when they find themselves locked out of their computers for the simple fact of their motherboard or hardware going out and them having to replace it?? And THEN having to pay a STUPID FEE to be able to reinstall a product they paid over 400 dollars for?? You actually think THAT is reasonable?? I think you are wrong if you believe that people are just going to accept this.

[Maestro120]

MS is a business. It has shareholders. Shareholders have the final say in general plans because they own the company.

Shareholders have a say in next to nothing. Shareholders vote on trival things, lets see the last shareholder absentee balot I recived asked token things like- 1. Boardmembers should have no managerial duties. - yes or no- and whatelse was on there, some question about a salary cap for CEO.

Shareholders have nothing to do with day to day operations, just ask Enron investors.

Sure Shareholders have no say in day to day stuff. But if Microsoft sales of Vista doesn't live up to expectations due to massive press coverage on complaints about Vista restrictions and blocking software those same Shareholders (in this case one Billy Gates) has the power to fire that same Board who may in turn fire the Ceo when the shit hits the fan.

[Maestro120]

This really makes me laugh. If slyck had a comedy forum, this would have to be moved there.

Ha Ha you're right !

Maybe we should start a countdown or something till the release of Vista. Sort of a Y2K scenario where suddenly all our computers are gonna stop working because of big, bad Vista !

[webe3]

Graphix let's take a look at it like this: You don't have to buy Vista, even the Christmas rush for PC sales will not have it on. Simple answer to those complaining about the price.

Ms have every right to protect their products from illegal use and to make up a price for it we have every right not to buy it if we don't agree with either. I take it then that if you have a job, Graphix and P2P, you do it for free. If not why should any business?

There will be various flavours of Vista at different prices, just like there are two flavours of XP. Therefore the prices will vary, for crying out loud look at what some of the speculated prices were for XP I remember £200 being mentioned at one time (approx $374 US) and that was years ago.

Yes LD I remember hearing exactly the same arguments about XP. It didn't take long for it to be craked and hacked for customisation. The same will more than likely happen to Vista, MSs past record at preventing such things is lousey.

MS will be releasing the kernal to third party AV and firewall companies as they have taken heat over it, full page ads in newspapers didn't help them. If they tried to lock them out they could look forward to another visit to the courts for breaking monopoly laws, at least in the EU which hasn't shown any fear of doing it.

I don't like MS dominance in the market but there are no real viable alternatives for everyday average PC users. Before anyone mentions Linux average users play games, big stumbling block. Nor are they as easy to cinfigure straight out of the box so to speak. Until these are overcome Linux based oses will always be minority players and niche market items. I like linux by the way.

Your argument has one HUGE flaw....you forget that you will only be able to use this OS TWICE before you have to pay a stupid FEE if you upgrade your hardware! That in itself is enough to start some lawsuits against MS!

This "use it twice and then PAY US" is not going to stand up very well under scrutiny of a court system! If someone pays $400.00 for a product and then have something go out on their computer such as a motherboard...that is not the users fault! But yet they are being punished because MS says they should pay a fee for having that happen.....I don't think people will agree that buy their products once they find out what is going on...and word WILL get around quick once this happens.

So I do not think a court would agree that they should have to pay a fee to be able to reinstall their operating system...and as MS operating systems have a monoply....I think the courts will have to be called in to stop them.

There will be cracks and such on the net, but what about people in companies and users that have things go wrong with their hardware that want to use it legitimately? Not everyone cracks MS operating systems....most just use it the way it is...though now they have to jump through many hoops just to use it. Are you saying they should have a right to be charged a fee or jump through hoops just because MS says so??

[webe3]

I use openBSD and Linux for everything, but I still think Vista will be a massive hit DRM or not!

Name one thing M$ have done that has failed to sell (note: failed to sell, not failed to work properly) and make lots of cash for Mr Gates?

Edit: because..

It may sell OK, but that is not going to stop lawsuits from happening over the things they are trying to impliment.


It may take awhile, but once people find out just how restrictive vista is, they may have a few angry words for MS in a courtroom somewhere.

[Fartingbob]

Thats why they have a encylopedia sized EULA agreement that you have to accept before installing. Although I wonder if you decline it if you can get your money back (you cant read it before purchase because its on the disc). Somehow i doubt that.

[webe3]

Thats why they have a encylopedia sized EULA agreement that you have to accept before installing. Although I wonder if you decline it if you can get your money back (you cant read it before purchase because its on the disc). Somehow i doubt that.

I doubt very seriously their EULA will be any defence in a courtroom. They have had things in it before that should have had them covered legally and yet they still got sued over it.


A EULA does not automatically make a company that includes it legally bulletproof.

[Dormant707]

Vista's hardware tolerance: one significant change before support remediation
10/30/2006 10:42:51 AM, by Ken Fisher

Windows Vista's licensing terms have raised eyebrows among PC enthusiasts. As previously reported, Windows Vista sports a new Software Protection Platform (SPP) aimed at curbing piracy. Among SPP's many features is a service that monitors PCs for evidence of significant hardware changes. New hard drive? New motherboard? Windows Vista will recognize and keep track of the hardware in your PC, much like its predecessor Windows XP did, and it will use that information to monitor licensing compliance.

What has enthusiasts concerned are language changes to the retail license for Vista that restrict the number of times you may transfer Vista from one device to another. The license reads: "The first user of the software may reassign the license to another device one time. If you reassign the license, that other device becomes the 'licensed device.'" Putting SPP and the new license together, many have wondered if Windows Vista would permit major hardware changes such as swapping out a motherboard. To make matters more confusing, reports circulated last week claiming that Windows Vista would allow for 10 re-activations stemming from hardware changes. We decided to contact Microsoft to get to the facts.

Of re-activations and algorithms

A Microsoft spokesperson told Ars Technica that "the hardware tolerance of product activation for Windows Vista has been improved and is more flexible than that for Windows XP," indicating that re-activations caused by minor changes to a PC should be less common. "We believe these improvements will better accommodate the needs of our PC enthusiast customers," the spokesperson said.

Microsoft told Ars Technica that SPP monitors the system and measures changes against the original hardware configuration of the PC in an attempt to determine if the software has been moved to a new device. SPP uses an undisclosed algorithm to to track changes, and it remains unclear how the algorithm assesses different hardware changes. The spokesperson reiterated the company's view that Vista's hardware tolerance is more flexible than before. As to the issue of multiple re-activations, Microsoft is standing behind the language of its licenses.

"Validation will fail if the software detects a substantially different hardware configuration," the spokesperson said. "At that point, the customer is able to use the one reassignment for the new device. If, after using its one reassignment right, a customer again exceeds the tolerance for updated components, the customer can purchase an additional license or seek remediation through Microsoft’s support services."

Asked specifically about the rumors that Vista would permit 10 such re-activations instead of only one, Microsoft indicated that the company had no further comments.

Waiting game, redux

For those reading between the lines, Microsoft's response is telling. The option of seeking remediation through Microsoft support is a good sign that the company has left a giant safety net in place, much as they did with Windows XP.

As I have noted before, similar concerns over hardware upgrades surfaced before Windows XP launched. The reality since that launch has been far less dramatic than many commentators predicted. In our extensive experience with re-activations caused by hardware changes, the outcome experienced most often amounts to this: we had to use Microsoft's automated phone system to retrieve a new activation code. No money changed hands. On average, the calls took less than five minutes.

Will history repeat itself with Windows Vista? Time will tell, but from where we sit, SPP appears to have all of the bark and the bite of a pack of pugs. It might sound scary, but the reality is something else.

Interesting perspective....

[zim]

Sometimes... You cant be too paranoid.

they are out to get you.

or at least the contents of you wallet.

[thejynxed]

From Paul Thurrott's SuperSite for Windows:

The Windows XP EULA appears to implicitly allow infinite transfers because it doesn't explicitly explain how many times one might transfer a single copy of XP. As it turns out, infinite transfers wasn't the intention. "This clause was always aimed at very specific circumstances," Microsoft general manager Shanen Boettcher told me. "Someone has a hardware failure, but still wants to run that copy of Windows on the new machine, for example."

The problem, of course, was that some people felt they could install a single copy of Windows as many times as they wanted. "It's always been per copy, per device," Boettcher said.

The above is concerning the Windows Vista EULA changes, again, straight from the mouth of the monopolist. Forget what ARS Technica says if that quote right there is straight out of the mouth of an MS general manager.

[MrFredPFL]

i'm not quite sure what your point here is, jynxed, since arstechnica also quotes a microsoft spokesman. are you saying paul thurrott's source is more valid? if so, on what do you base that? arstechnica says their quote is also, as you would put it, "straight from the mouth of the monopolist" as well. are they lying? do you have more information you are witholding?

[Repzak]

Also what is the point in what MS supposedly wanted or didn't want? What matters is what the things SAYS. And Vista is far more restrictive than XP was.

(Also note that despite this absurd claim on Paul's site MS has never ever in all the years of XP mentioned this before. It's nowhere to be found in any document, pressrelease or public comment ever made.)

Seems thin to me.

[a44]

I'm definitely not gonna get Vista. I'll stay with my XP till support is cut. By then I really really hope Linux is better in the gaming sector.
Vista has so much DRM I won't consider even pirating it.

[ixxnnckourvfvbzl]

I use openBSD and Linux for everything, but I still think Vista will be a massive hit DRM or not!

Name one thing M$ have done that has failed to sell (note: failed to sell, not failed to work properly) and make lots of cash for Mr Gates?

Edit: because..

Windows Phone

[MrFredPFL]

not their biggest success story. 2.7% of market share. but i think i actually do know someone with a job issued windows phone. i'll have to ask.

[MrFredPFL]

it was a lot of fun to read this thread again. so much FUD. so much paranoia. so many false claims. i think the Psychic Friends Network could have done a better job of seeing the future.