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Postby Maestro120 » Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:35 pm

JunqueMan wrote:
Maestro120 wrote:Sorry, little Johnny's Dad doesn't frequent those sites. :wink:
Only you and I.

Ah, but how many people visit YouTube? Or any other comparable site. Or how about any site that has any type of DRM'able (yes, I know it's not an actual term) content such as videos (WMV or otherwise), pictures (gif's, jpg's, etc), or audio (WMA, wave, mp3, etc) embedded in their website? Will every form of content have to be eventually licensed and then you have to prove you have the right to show that content?

It may or may not happen, but do you want to take that chance and let things continue to slide in that direction?

Junque Man


Hahaha !! The first realistic rebuttal on how DRM will affect little Johnny's Daddy !! :D

Only problem is, what does it have to do with Vista ?
You can't download a video from Utube or comparable sites to watch on your computer... its all streaming. The DRM will stop that at source.
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Postby Maestro120 » Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:42 pm

zim wrote:yes. just keep repeating "microsoft would never do THAT"

it doesnt change the fact they will. and are.


and it doesnt change the fact that you'll feel mighty stupid once you figure it out.

:roll:

I pity you all for being short sighted consumers who think you are microsofts customers. and not part of the product paying to be delivered to the content producers.

But i pity myself more because you're dragging me into a computing future i dont want. And yet cant stop. Can't even wise anyone up.



Heres another crazy prediction... someday soon the "hackers" who you rely on to help you keep control of your own pc will be jailed under terrorisim laws.


Zim...

Atleast I've got to give Graphix credit in that he has attempted to back up his points with facts as much as possible thus making him a good debater.

You come here now saying how sorry we will be and how short sighted we are and how stupid we are and how you pity us and on and on and on.

And oh yeah... Hackers are gonna be jailed as terrorists too :D

And... thats it, nothing else.

You get my point ? :P
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Postby JunqueMan » Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:46 pm

Maestro120 wrote:Only problem is, what does it have to do with Vista ?
You can't download a video from Utube or comparable sites to watch on your computer... its all streaming. The DRM will stop that at source.

Well, skipping YouTube, if Vista does what some say it will (not allowing non-DRM'ed content) then a website, say Slyck, will have to prove all pictures on it's site (especially those four news related ones on the main page) are either licensed to them or that they have a license to show them. That's on their side. On our side, we'd have to show Vista that we then have the right to download those images to our hard drive to be able to actually view them.

Could become quite complicated...if worst came to worst.

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Postby Maestro120 » Sun Oct 29, 2006 5:01 pm

JunqueMan wrote:
Maestro120 wrote:Only problem is, what does it have to do with Vista ?
You can't download a video from Utube or comparable sites to watch on your computer... its all streaming. The DRM will stop that at source.

Well, skipping YouTube, if Vista does what some say it will (not allowing non-DRM'ed content) then a website, say Slyck, will have to prove all pictures on it's site (especially those four news related ones on the main page) are either licensed to them or that they have a license to show them. That's on their side. On our side, we'd have to show Vista that we then have the right to download those images to our hard drive to be able to actually view them.

Could become quite complicated...if worst came to worst.


I am dead certain that Vista will not simply block all content if the holder can't prove that they have the required license. Such a situation would become untenable and would start to affect even the common consumer (in my example, little Johnny's Dad :P) and as I've been at pains to point out, that is the last thing that Microsoft will want to do.

What I think may happen is that the various content providers will work out with Microsoft some kind of vetting scheme where Vista will recognise certain watermarks or licensing code and will restrict the usage of those files to a certain extent. However Vista wouldn't just blanket block an open source format such as say mp3 or jpg just because it doesn't have some licence attached to it. If you believe that then you would be firmly in the camp of the conspiracy *cough*Zim*cough* theorests. :wink:
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Postby zim » Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:26 pm

I really should just go get a job for microsoft. You are all making it way too easy for them.

Might be time to jump on the winning team so i can laugh and collect your money while doing nearly nothing.


And vista wont be blocking much of anything. its only laying the framework for blocking. but say vista SP2... thats about the right timeframe. Of course the blocking will be billed as "increased security". And everyone will say how great it is that microsoft is doing something about it.. :roll:


I don't mean to rub it in.. but... "MOO"
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Postby GraphiX » Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:56 pm

why brings me back to my first point
knowing everything you know now conspiracy or not
your going to actually pay LOTS of dollars/pounds
for an OS that is going to cause you this much greif?

i certainly can't understand how or why anyone after
reading or knowning a 3rd of this would buy vista
let alone rush out to buy it.

them people should be shot people like that
are just people that we dont need around making our lives a living hell just so they can find out for themselves find it to be all true then come crying about it later.

i think what zim is on about is how short sighted people are like brainwashed infact on this theory of

"oh microsoft cant do that they wont blah blah"

why can't they? they can and are and will
and no-one will stop them at all they cant

do they care? no they couldn't care less what the consumer wants but yet they want us to buy their products

it doesn't make sense what company couldn't care about the customers that is buying their products?

if people have any clue or use filesharing they would stay way clear of vista be-cause as everyone starts to install and use vista thats 1 more person killing the filesharing community.

and any company or business that is doing this to its users and customers will have no problems in even going further and screwing us to the point of no return
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Postby zim » Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:39 pm

People will believe what they want.
Its nearly impossible to get someone to believe something unpleasant they didnt want to believe.


Ive tried logic, common sense, point by point arguing, and outright ranting in the past.

But i've settled for making fun of people for being short sighted and clueless. And swearing at them for screwing us all by being so.
It has as much chance of success as anything else. Almost none. But at least its entertaining for me.
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Postby JunqueMan » Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:57 pm

I don't believe anything till I see it. However, it does make you wonder why Vista would have all those DRM and TC capabilities built in without intending to use it at some point. And with Microsoft's record of saying one thing and doing another, I'm not sure they're just looking out for the public's benefit.

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Postby zim » Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:01 pm

Thats the major problem. Once you see what microsoft is doing with all this.

It will be too late to do anything about it.
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Postby JunqueMan » Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:08 pm

Nah, I'll just switch to Linux (or other still to be made OS) or go back to XP (if I ever do upgrade to Vista).

There's always alternatives.

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Postby Repzak » Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:13 pm

zim wrote:I don't mean to rub it in.. but... "MOO"


Can we please leave insults at the door? No matter if you spell them out or imply that those that disagree with you are a certain kind of bovine animal.

Vista is crap, but several of the points in GraphiX' post was blatantly wrong - most particularly that Vista would block the use of ISO's. It will not do so in any way, shape or form. That in itself places his believability a long way below zero. Pointing out his errors and paranoia does not mean someone likes Vista or intends to pay for it.

It is at best a worthless and bloated upgrade to XP, and at worst a major step backwards for important technologies and ideas such as P2P, OSS and consumer rights.

But lying and spreading obviously false and paranoid information does not help "defeat" Vista. All it will do is make you look less creditable. Focus on the things that really are wrong - not your fabricated net of paranoid conspiracy theories.
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Postby zim » Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:58 pm

JunqueMan wrote:Nah, I'll just switch to Linux (or other still to be made OS) or go back to XP (if I ever do upgrade to Vista).

There's always alternatives.

Junque Man


Not an option. it will have the drm too. Or wont be running on your trusted computing enabled hardware. that you already own.

why people insist that this drm issue is standlone is beyond me. its part of a far reaching plan to keep the profit from pc's in the hand of a few big companys and the content producers.



Really i got to give them credit. They're going to pull it off without a fight at all. its not going to take long either.

Look how far its come so far. activation, wga, tcpa chips in all our new computers, hdmi, broadcast flags, sdmi, bluray, and now the next version of windows chock full of drm controls. and all of it backed up by the dmca making it illegal to circumvent any of it.

And all along people have claimed they wont stand for it. they'll switch. do something. nobody would go for it. theres alternatives. it wont happen.

And here we are.
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Postby adderal » Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:59 pm

LD50% wrote:
Name one thing M$ have done that has failed to sell (note: failed to sell, not failed to work properly) and make lots of cash for Mr Gates?

[/size]


MS Bob ? Maybe I'm wrong, they might have made money on the crappy product, I'm not sure.
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Postby JunqueMan » Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:55 pm

zim wrote:Not an option. it will have the drm too. Or wont be running on your trusted computing enabled hardware. that you already own.

My computer is 5 years old, doubt there's much DRM impeded in it's hardware. Newest component is a HD bought last year.

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Postby zim » Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:10 am

and how much do you think you'll be able to do with that 5 year old computer in the near future...

made yourself irrevelant to it all.
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Postby JunqueMan » Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:40 am

zim wrote:and how much do you think you'll be able to do with that 5 year old computer in the near future...

Well. I'm not a gamer (any I do play already work on this machine), so I don't have to worry about that. My computer already plays video and mp3 files just fine so that's good. Only thing left is email and surfing the web (could do that with a 286) so that's okay. What else is there that I need?

I just like upgrading OS's when I can, though I definitely don't have to.

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Postby reyfer » Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:04 am

OS = I use Linux, been Microsoft free for a year now

DRM = all my music is in Ogg format, so.... :lol:
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Postby Maestro120 » Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:41 am

zim wrote:People will believe what they want.
Its nearly impossible to get someone to believe something unpleasant they didnt want to believe.


Ive tried logic, common sense, point by point arguing, and outright ranting in the past.

But i've settled for making fun of people for being short sighted and clueless. And swearing at them for screwing us all by being so.
It has as much chance of success as anything else. Almost none. But at least its entertaining for me.


You would be surprised at how many of us agree with you that Vista is a piece of crap not worth upgrading to due to bloat ware, DRM restrictions, slowing down Games (from Microsoft's own mouth), etc...

But the reason no one seems to listen to you is because of this shocking Doomsday mentality you've got where the World is going to come to an end with the introduction of Vista to the masses. But then again your negativity extends way beyond Vista doesn't it ?
If I remember correctly, Newsgroups are gonna be sued into extinction and P2P is soon gonna be a thing of the past according to the gospel of Zim isn't that so ?

My advice Zim, leave the "WORLD IS AT AN END, JESUS LOVES YOU !!" sign at home just for today. Go outside and smell the roses. Take your girlfriend to lunch or something. And don't worry about your computer blowing up if you try to turn it back on when you get back home.:P


zim wrote:
Look how far its come so far. activation, wga, tcpa chips in all our new computers, hdmi, broadcast flags, sdmi, bluray, and now the next version of windows chock full of drm controls. and all of it backed up by the dmca making it illegal to circumvent any of it.


Yes all these things are happening but... so what ?

The world keeps moving on. Hackers break some of them (atleast the ones that aren't jailed as Terrorists anyway :D), Linux adapts to compete with MS thus giving consumers a choice, whatever.
DCMA has proved to be completely ineffective in stopping anybody from bypassing copyright protection. If you owned one of the vaunted UNHACKABLE Xbox360s you would know that.
XP, as countless others have already mentioned, had many of these dire predictions and now 6 years later we are all hanging on to it for dear life !

zim wrote:
Ive tried logic, common sense, point by point arguing, and outright ranting in the past.



You have got to be kidding me !! :D :D
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Postby GraphiX » Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:05 am

so when what i've said and what zim has said actually happens because you people just dont seem to understand this is what is happening and what we said is their major overall plans then what?

you going to hang your heads moping about saying damn wish we would of helped spread the word now there is no going back :(

people rely too much on "crackers" hackers
yes they are our only savior in this day and age
yes they are hero's not villians as they give us all back our fair use rights which should never of even got this far EVER! we have fairuse rights which is still legal but all that is swept under the carpet.

what happens when the "hackers"/Crackers decide
to turn back against us all? with viruses malware?
DRM is the ultimate weapon they been waiting for

they can make viruses to totally dissable you system
if DRM can lock you out and is hard-coded into cpu' hdd' motherboards etc etc i like see you get around that if you ever did get a drm virus etc.

someone above said about "i dont have drm in my hardware its over 5 years old"

then said something about bought a new hdd,
congrats you've just bought DRM hardware simple.

and like i have said time and time again but it seems people just are not listening or choose not too

ALL hardware contained DRM for 5 years
its all ready in millions of laptops from 2001 on...
it's all ready inside dvd burners/devices of that nature too

why hasn't it bothered us? it is simple.

TRUSTEDComputing needs A TrustedComputing Platform
to be -able to ENABLE the DRM in the Hardware!

no other OS to date has a TrustedComp Platform
XP doesn't Win98se, dont, win2k dont.

Vista is and does... it is the vessel for DRM
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Postby zim » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:32 am

Maestro120 wrote:But the reason no one seems to listen to you is because of this shocking Doomsday mentality you've got where the World is going to come to an end with the introduction of Vista to the masses. But then again your negativity extends way beyond Vista doesn't it ?
If I remember correctly, Newsgroups are gonna be sued into extinction and P2P is soon gonna be a thing of the past according to the gospel of Zim isn't that so ?


Damm.. don't i say enough without you making shit up and claiming i said it?


It's not doomsday. Its the end of free computing. Things wont change that much aside from you'll have to pay to do just about anything.

Newsgroups wont be sued into extinction. But they will be sued. And customers will abandon them in droves. Which will greatly reduce their usefulness for everyone.

And p2p wont ever end. But for millions its going to be alot harder to bother with. And they wont. It will be easier to pay instead. Its not going to end. but its going to get alot smaller.



Come on people. think it thru. Put yourself in their place. YOU are microsoft. one of the richest companys on the planet. millions if not billions of people use and rely on your product every day. yet hate you. free software is a threat to your business. Your partners are entertainment companys and major media producers. You've spent millions creating digital restrictions for the future. Your 'customers' are clueless.

What would you do next?


Microsoft doesnt do things for 'no reason'. It might seem like it sometimes but they dont.
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Postby Maestro120 » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:48 am

zim wrote:Damm.. don't i say enough without you making shit up and claiming i said it?


It's not doomsday. Its the end of free computing. Things wont change that much aside from you'll have to pay to do just about anything.

Newsgroups wont be sued into extinction. But they will be sued. And customers will abandon them in droves. Which will greatly reduce their usefulness for everyone.

And p2p wont ever end. But for millions its going to be alot harder to bother with. And they wont. It will be easier to pay instead. Its not going to end. but its going to get alot smaller.



Like I said... Doomsday predictions.

Fine. Live in your world then. The rest of us will live in the real one. Thats cliche as hell but still true.
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Postby rakan » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:28 am

GraphiX wrote:
TRUSTEDComputing needs A TrustedComputing Platform
to be -able to ENABLE the DRM in the Hardware!

no other OS to date has a TrustedComp Platform
XP doesn't Win98se, dont, win2k dont.

Vista is and does... it is the vessel for DRM


GraphiX

Your posts are interesting and I agree with most of your points. However, don't you think that people will be able to crack these DRMs? Don't you think that TrustedComputing on Vista can be broken?
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Postby GraphiX » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:38 am

DRM inside the software can be broken of course
if you knew who i was then you'd not need ask that lol i know i know sounds all top secret l337 bullshit but anyway not getting into that.

hardware that is locked tight with DRM
is the problems that wont be cracked easy

not saying in time it wont be cracked im saying
it will take a while before it is broken because of the way it works using the TrustedComputing as a platform if you tamper or try to reverse engineer the coding and you make mistakes by hitting offset or wrong jumpoints in the initial coding then you will render the entire TrustedPlatform useless

it's like blueray soon as you modify and change or try and tamper with the initial workings or flash the chips that store the DRM infomation it will dissable the entire system making it a brick.

software side of it piece of piss could do that
and i will do that, that isn't a problem

what is software driven is code by man what is coded by man can be un-coded by man simple reverse rule

but when you start bringing hardware and firmware inside hardware into play and mixing that with software then your going to end up with trouble.

wrong offset/jump-points injections of code or removal trunkated code if you get that wrong at all in any of the hundreds of places inside the firmware it will just trigger it and render it useless.

upto you to believe it or not can't force people
im just telling you how it is
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Postby rakan » Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:39 am

I see what you mean, it sounds like your stance is that Vista will be a more difficult "egg to crack" but that it could be done. I think you are correct. It almost seems like the issue is with hardware manufacturers bowing to MS. Perhaps they shouldn't support these DRMs?
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Postby zim » Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:03 pm

its in the hardware companys best interest to support it. as in. alot of cash best interest.

software makers and content producers vs. the hardware companys. hardware cant hold out alone.

especially since vista wont run with unsigned drivers. you dont play ball. your drivers dont get approved. your hardware wont run on vista. you are cut out of the market and wont sell anything.

billions of dollars in future sales on the line. how far will someone go to keep their monopoly?

I'm sure we'll see examples of it soon enough. eastern hardware companys that make something that doesnt conform to whatever drm specs microsoft and the content creators demand. working drivers dont get signed. the hardware is useless for alot of people. no sales of a great product.


Might think its all conspiracy theorys.. but to be proven all we gotta do is nothing. and wait and see.

It should be obvious to most people by the time they stop support for xp. Less than 5 years.
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