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Re: Labels Sue Usenet Service Usenet.com

Postby MetalFuture » Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:33 pm

azitler wrote:Ok so they did boast about being able to access illicit files:

http://www.usenet.com/articles/free_download.htm

and so all I can say to that is "IDIOTS" :roll:


www.usenet.com wrote:Usenet has a much wider selection than any of the other file sharing programs and it is available to you to use 24 x 7


Newsgroups have a very large selection, but I would not say "wider".

FWIW, I use Newsgroups for 99.8% of what I want, every once in a while I'll use a torrent if its something I must have now and I don't feel like waiting for it to cycle around (or wait for my request to be filled).
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Re: Labels Sue Usenet Service Usenet.com

Postby lordfoul » Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:44 pm

Well I see the RIAA gave Slyck a plug on the eleventh page of the complaint anyways. 8)

I count 1165 songs @ $150,000 each to be $174,750,000 in damages plus legal fees of course. :shock:
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Re: Labels Sue Usenet Service Usenet.com

Postby piXelatedEmpire » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:09 pm

grubbymitts wrote:Straight from the page.
What Exactly Can You Download in Usenet?
Anything and everything. Literally. There are movies, mp3s, cartoons, wallpapers, sounds, videos, pictures, warez, games, software and much more. The files (also known as “binaries” in Usenet) are organized by subject in the so called “newsgroups,” which makes it really easy for everyone from the inexperienced user to the expert to find what they are looking for. You can search the newsgroups in Usenet by using keywords. All you need is a piece of software called a newsreader which Usenet.com offers to members for free and you are ready to start downloading. And you can download as much as you want if you get the right membership plan. Forget about the disadvantages of file sharing software. Meet Usenet, the new place for free downloads!


Whilst not implying that any of these are illegal downloads (all of them can be legal, of course), it does make enough of a case for the RIAA to take to court.

I don't know if it does make enough of a case personally. Time will tell.

Here is ArsTechnica's take on this story, quite a thorough run down of what is happening.
Ross Wheeler, CEO of Albury.net.au, referring to the Australian Governments internet filtering plan wrote:"It's the most ill-conceived pile of stupidity by the biggest bunch of cretins that I've ever seen in my life"
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Re: Labels Sue Usenet Service Usenet.com

Postby Dark Horizon » Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:10 am

grubbymitts wrote:Straight from the page.
What Exactly Can You Download in Usenet?
Anything and everything. Literally. There are movies, mp3s, cartoons, wallpapers, sounds, videos, pictures, warez, games, software and much more. The files (also known as “binaries” in Usenet) are organized by subject in the so called “newsgroups,” which makes it really easy for everyone from the inexperienced user to the expert to find what they are looking for. You can search the newsgroups in Usenet by using keywords. All you need is a piece of software called a newsreader which Usenet.com offers to members for free and you are ready to start downloading. And you can download as much as you want if you get the right membership plan. Forget about the disadvantages of file sharing software. Meet Usenet, the new place for free downloads!


Whilst not implying that any of these are illegal downloads (all of them can be legal, of course), it does make enough of a case for the RIAA to take to court.

I'm don't think there is a legal version of that. :P
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Re: Labels Sue Usenet Service Usenet.com

Postby LANjackal » Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:34 am

The MGM v. Grokster ruling in 2005 made it easier for rights-holders to extract damages from companies whose products promote copyright infringement. In its wake, Big Content has sued a number of P2P networks. Although the lawsuit marks the first time the RIAA has targeted Usenet, the group has gone after the likes of Sharman Networks, creators of the popular and infamous KaZaA P2P network. In 2006, the MPAA, IFPI, and RIAA shared in a $115 million settlement with Sharman Networks, which subsequently agreed to begin filtering copyrighted content from KaZaA.
This was actually a horrible precedent for the RIAA. They unwittingly flushed the market of profiteers and turned P2P into a largely FLOSS endeavor whose development was truly decentralized with no moneybag to target with a lawsuit.

Oh, and just as the MGM case put P2P in the spotlight (usage soared thereafter), this case is sure to put Usenet on the front page. Providers (especially those overseas) will see a rise in signups as people realize just how much can be had, as they did thanks to the MGM case.

BTW... another sign that this case won't have any impact on Usenet in general: if the RIAA really had a strong case against all providers, they'd have gone after the Big Kahuna, Giganews. As evidence for this, I offer that they've always gone after the biggest fish first: Napster, Kazaa, Grokster, Morpheus, Limewire, eDonkey. It makes total sense that they'd go after Giga', Easy' or Newshosting, especially if they read Slyck.com where such providers are regularly praised.

The difference is that Usenet.com billed itself as "hottest way of sharing MP3 files over the Internet' without getting caught." What a bunch of idiots (both Usenet.com and the RIAA). Giganews - I read their page - simply offers binary access, privacy, retention and completion, and most other providers are smart enough to do the same, just as most leased server companies don't exactly advertise the fact that they effectively sell the most powerful illicit uploading and distribution tools on earth, period. The **AA wouldn't have a case against either.

Bottom line: even if Usenet.com loses, this isn't anything to lose sleep over. So import those NZBs and give your cable modem some work to do ;).
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Re: Labels Sue Usenet Service Usenet.com

Postby azitler » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:08 am

I kind of agree LanJackal - they have obviously gone after usenet.com rather than Giganews because of usenet.com's idiotic promotion of their service but I also believe that they see this as stepping stone to going after the other providers - the consequences to them if they lose are far too high for it to be a worthwhile risk just to take down one minor provider.

A lot depends on the judgement as to whether it's simply the promotion of the service that is illegal, or whether, as the suit is trying to claim, providing access to the binaries is also illegal.

Hopefully, the Judge will see that the RIAA are effectively asking a service provider to filter access to a valid part of the internet (i.e. usenet), which, if they are allowed to do, posits the question, where will this all end? I'm sure the RIAA are hoping that they get a tech-phobic (or corrupt/big business-friendly) judge whom they can convince that Usenet is a P2P network and set a precedent that will allow them to go after all of the other providers and thus effectively terminate usenet as a whole.

One question I'm not sure of - is there anything that prevents uploaders from sticking binary files into non alt.binaries newsgroups (like rec.arts.kiteflying or similar)?
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Re: Labels Sue Usenet Service Usenet.com

Postby Anon_ » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:25 am

I'm interested to see a response from Megabitz and other USP on this lawsuit as the implications of a judgement against usenet.com could have a profound impact on US based Usenet Service Providers.

azitler said it best; if usenet.com loses in court, a precedent will be set which can make it easier for the RIAA to target other USP based in the US. Whether that could ultimately mean elimination of groups, forced policing of posts, or an automated system which allows anyone to request posts be removed immediately, then that could have a large financial effect. It would not only be an increased cost to USP, but potentially a loss in customers. Ultimately, I think large USP will find themselves painted into a corner like online poker services and be forced to move their servers offshore to countries with built up infrastructure,cheap bandwidth, and good routing. If I were running a USP I'd already be looking at options in The Netherlands. Building up infrastructure/datacenters in the Caribbean would be a good second option, as it could also serve the interests of the banking community while staying free from US regulation, US judicial influence, and taxes.
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Re: Labels Sue Usenet Service Usenet.com

Postby LANjackal » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:53 am

azitler wrote:One question I'm not sure of - is there anything that prevents uploaders from sticking binary files into non alt.binaries newsgroups (like rec.arts.kiteflying or similar)?
Depends. Some groups are moderated and rogue messages are cleaned out. But those are the exception, not the rule.
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Re: Labels Sue Usenet Service Usenet.com

Postby Maestro120 » Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:14 am

Personally I think Usenet.com in itself is in serious trouble as those A**holes running the show over there have clearly not learned the lessons gleaned from the Supreme Court decision in MGM vs Grokster, i.e... do not sell your service as being explicitly for the purpose of illegal downloading or a source of copyrighted content and the media cartels can't touch you... full stop. I guess they just let competition go to their heads and used those extra "advertisements" as a means of getting a leg up on the other providers.
But I'm thinking the judge will have no choice but to following the ruling given by the Supreme Court and convict Usenet.com based on their advertising policies. What precedent is set for the other providers we really don't know... really depends on what ruling the judge makes and if he just limits it to the area of "purposely selling your service as source of copyright material". The whole thing may eventually end up going back to the same Supreme Court for a clarification on their previous ruling. But clearly the RIAA has decided its time to go after this aspect of the P2P universe.
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Re: Labels Sue Usenet Service Usenet.com

Postby altpdend » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:29 am

azitler wrote:Ok so they did boast about being able to access illicit files:

http://www.usenet.com/articles/free_download.htm

and so all I can say to that is "IDIOTS" :roll:


This is really the only thing that usenet really has to worry about if it wasn't for that stupid they fall in safe harbor for sure.

If they have a good lawyer I mean like matlock where it talks about what files you can the lawyer could make argument that it was talkung about whats on usenet/newsgroups and was not promoting piracy. If they do lose it will really only effects usenet.com beause not other NG. is that stupid. Usenet.com I am sure will be able drag this out for yours planty of for oversees providers to pop up not that there aren't many now.


That link is articals about how usenet network works and are not marketing. Those are articles that are not even linked the usenet.com website
Last edited by altpdend on Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Labels Sue Usenet Service Usenet.com

Postby slacker6 » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:20 am

It's pretty simple to see what will happen with this (and what the goals are):

1. Usenet providers must change their business model to NOT include any copyrighted material.

2. #1 means filtering binary newsgroups as requested by RIAA, etc if the court agrees (and this will probably happen)

3. Usenet providers will begin logging downloads all subscribers.

4. Usenet providers will have to maintain download logs for certain period of time.

5. Usenet providers in the US will go back to mainly text based discussion groups.
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Re: Labels Sue Usenet Service Usenet.com

Postby Kythe » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:09 pm

I'm sure those are the goals, but they would basically kill the Usenet access market, so count on there being a (protracted) fight before anything like those changes go through :)
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Re: Labels Sue Usenet Service Usenet.com

Postby Watain » Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:15 pm

slacker6 wrote:It's pretty simple to see what will happen with this (and what the goals are):

1. Usenet providers must change their business model to NOT include any copyrighted material.

2. #1 means filtering binary newsgroups as requested by RIAA, etc if the court agrees (and this will probably happen)

3. Usenet providers will begin logging downloads all subscribers.

4. Usenet providers will have to maintain download logs for certain period of time.

5. Usenet providers in the US will go back to mainly text based discussion groups.

for number 4...this is very unrealistic...wont it take up alot of space to log thousands of users and everything they download/upload...so if a provider doesnt have the capacity to log much then what lol

but how will they filter stuff...lets say i tell my friends...hey check out the latest linux...i named it jokes.rar only me and my friends will know that the rar contains linux and not a bunch jokes lol...so this is a way around the filtering i guess..FTD etc will be used alot more perhaps

they gotta pretty much shut down all the big providers for usenet to die lol
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Re: Labels Sue Usenet Service Usenet.com

Postby LANjackal » Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:09 pm

slacker6 wrote:It's pretty simple to see what will happen with this (and what the goals are):

1. Usenet providers must change their business model to NOT include any copyrighted material.

2. #1 means filtering binary newsgroups as requested by RIAA, etc if the court agrees (and this will probably happen)

3. Usenet providers will begin logging downloads all subscribers.

4. Usenet providers will have to maintain download logs for certain period of time.

5. Usenet providers in the US will go back to mainly text based discussion groups.
If you've read the forums here over the years, people such as yourself have been prophesying the same for filesharing in general every time a significant lawsuit comes up.

It doesn't happen.

Usenet providers are practically broadcast/common carriers such as ISPs, and as long as they obey takedown requests like ISPs do, they're really not obligated to filter or any such thing like that. Usenet.com is a special case because they advertised themselves as an infringement medium, which, given the Grokster case, painted crosshairs on their backs.
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Re: Labels Sue Usenet Service Usenet.com

Postby Asuran » Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:09 pm

So how was Napster forced to filter or quit? Wasn't it essentially a service provider just like usenet except that it only stored indexes of files, not the files itself?
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Re: Labels Sue Usenet Service Usenet.com

Postby Kythe » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:21 pm

Asuran wrote:So how was Napster forced to filter or quit? Wasn't it essentially a service provider just like usenet except that it only stored indexes of files, not the files itself?


Napster didn't provide an access service. They provided a computer program.
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Re: Labels Sue Usenet Service Usenet.com

Postby Overnet User » Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:11 pm

Please Note:
Usenet.com does not control the newsgroups on Usenet. We do not create the newsgroup or newsgroups on Usenet. Each newsgroup that is created is the sole responsibility of the person who created it. We do not control what people post to usenet. Our servers are classified as a "transitory network." A newsgroup name in and of itself does not mean that what is posted to that group corresponds to the name of the newsgroup.


It was simply speaking fact (the main page in discussion).
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Re: Labels Sue Usenet Service Usenet.com

Postby Asuran » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:19 pm

Kythe wrote:Napster didn't provide an access service. They provided a computer program.


The program didn't work without the indexing service they provided for it. Hasn't many usenet providers also bundled some software with their service.
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Re: Labels Sue Usenet Service Usenet.com

Postby Shadwell » Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:14 pm

Usenet.com were idiots. At least Giganews was a bit more subtle. I wonder who will be next though. Giganews are the biggest so I wonder if those bastards are eying them up. Heh heh. Now that would be an interesting fight. Personally I hope that Usenet.com wins the fight but I bet the other newsgroup providers are watching with interest.
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Re: Labels Sue Usenet Service Usenet.com

Postby wrench » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:43 am

Found this in alt.binaries.dvd.genealogy today......

As many of you may know, Usenet.com is in litigation against the RIAA.

As part of our defense in this case we are demonstrating that there
are many non-infringing and authorized uses of Usenet, especially in
the binaries newsgroups.

We are looking for evidence of any such use, such as content owners who
allow their content to be freely distributed throughout the Usenet network.
We need to gather that evidence as soon as possible and would appreciate
any help.

Time is of the essence if you want to continue to use USENET as a medium
of distribution. Please email reply@usenet.com by 2/15/2009.

Many Thanks!
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Re: Labels Sue Usenet Service Usenet.com

Postby altpdend » Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:12 am

why would they post that msg in a newsgroup nothing is on their website. Othert people have said they have already removed all mp3 groups I wonder if they have already settled with the riaa.
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