Official ACS:LAW/DL letter/legal threat discussion

[verytired]

to 'oldgeeser'

i hope you have claimed it back from them... you send them a threatening letter claiming loss of earnings whilst you went to the post office to collect your letter from them plus the cost of the postage they failed to put on. i wonder what has happened to thier franking machine??!?
just a thought!

[dedd]

Are you serious!... that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of. Further evidence that DL are just a joke, filled with incompetent workers and money scrounging scoundrels...

[Clock-watcher]

Interesting two page article in this month's PC Pro computer magazine about all this. A few legal points razed from 'experts' regarding the IP addresses being personally identifiable and wifi. Worth standing in Smiths to read if you don't buy it.

[Cthulhu_]

Interesting two page article in this month's PC Pro computer magazine about all this. A few legal points razed from 'experts' regarding the IP addresses being personally identifiable and wifi. Worth standing in Smiths to read if you don't buy it.

Give us the lowdown?

[ghost1987]

Have a look on that
http://www.csoonline.com/article/460120 ... /Erik+Tews

Just to let you know guys,I have successfuly cracked my neighbour's protected wireless network,maybe now I'll download some games without any trouble or worries,how about some dirty porn? someone done it to me so why shouldn't I do it?

[Paladwyn]

Well, you don't want to incriminate somebody else..you seem like a good guy, so don't make yourself the bad guy

[metoo]

Have a look on that
http://www.csoonline.com/article/460120 ... /Erik+Tews

Just to let you know guys,I have successfuly cracked my neighbour's protected wireless network,maybe now I'll download some games without any trouble or worries,how about some dirty porn? someone done it to me so why shouldn't I do it?

Why would you and to crack your neighbour's WiFi and put your neighbours through this? That is a very poor and immature attitude to have which lowers the tone of the advice given on this forum. There is no need for it. I don't know what you are trying to prove but doing that will not accomplish it in a way which will have a positive effect to our cases. If you are taken to court it will not be down to YOU to crack someone's WiFi. You will need to hire a court approved expert witness to give evidence.

[Fenrix]

Going to have to give this forum a miss from now on unfortunatly, IF i do get my chance to defend in court, this forum isn't going to have anything credible to help with any more. People hacking Wifi, people insulting DL and lawyers, people doing "wee waves" all detracts from the credibility of the forum in my view. DL will pick on these posts and wipe out any influence the advice gained from here can give. I beleive we were all called a "Vigilante hackers forum" once in a media report, and now unfortunatly, that moniker is beginning to hold some truth.

I will still keep in touch with the peops I already am with via PM and let people know how the solicitors i have invloved are doing.

Thanks for the advice so far, and hopefully everyone will keep fighting

[Pinball Wizard]

Hiya folks

I just found this netcast about the various cases across the world (especially Europe) regarding the wireless defence and liability of the broadband subsrciber. It should help you all put this whole farce in perspective. It is dated 16th Oct 08 and lasts about 10 minutes. It comes from out-law.com - a credible news source regarding IT legal matters.

http://www.out-law.com/radio/out-law_radio_16102008.mp3

@Fenrix
I understand your view and sympathise with you on this matter. There is a lot of content and behaviour which has occurred on these forums which strays off topic or is not constructive (I myself am probably guilty of this as well). I would suggest that you keep an eye on this forum through the future, because there is also a lot of information which is relevant. I for one have definitely found it beneficial.

@ Everyone
Lets try and stick to the topic, and keep this professional. Fenrix does have a valid point. Ranting and/or flaming is not constructive (but they might make one feel better). I will certainly strive to keep my posts on topic, relevant and constructive.

[hipraptor]

Going to have to give this forum a miss from now on unfortunatly, IF i do get my chance to defend in court, this forum isn't going to have anything credible to help with any more. People hacking Wifi, people insulting DL and lawyers, people doing "wee waves" all detracts from the credibility of the forum in my view. DL will pick on these posts and wipe out any influence the advice gained from here can give. I beleive we were all called a "Vigilante hackers forum" once in a media report, and now unfortunatly, that moniker is beginning to hold some truth.

I will still keep in touch with the peops I already am with via PM and let people know how the solicitors i have invloved are doing.

Thanks for the advice so far, and hopefully everyone will keep fighting

I think that post on hacking was rather foolish, but this is not a legal forum and so now and then some of use are so cross with DL, that some of our posts may have digs at DL, sometimes like the hacking post people may go OTT, but at the end of the day, this is a file sharing related site and not a moderated legal forum.

Also I am sure if DL can use what we say here against people in court, it will use the point that here we are posting on a file sharing related site, so we must be all guilty as we are associated with file sharing due to posting here, of course this is not so, this site has just become a central place where those of us who are willing to fight and have a day in court are pooling our experiences etc.

I do think however that if apost is counter productive as for sure the hacking wifi one seems to be, then it should be removed.

[hipraptor]

I have just listened to the MP3 and no doubt so will others, well it was interesting, but like all the other court cases etc that have occured in Europe, are only relevant that these are EU countries, even though the UK claims to abide by EU law in practice EU law or any court case in the EU tends to be ignored, if it where not then by now DL would have been stopped from there campaign.

What we need is a UK case that is defended, rather then people here in the UK eiher failing to challenge DL in court by paying up when they get the threatening letters or by ignoring them and allowing DL to win on default.

[ghost1987]

Regarding my last post I did hack that network and it had only an experimental form which proved that even a secured network is easy to crack.
I would never incriminate my neighbour or onyone else.
What I was trying to prove was how good that protection really is.
If I did it easly, then think how many people on your street can do it.
My wireless router have a 50m range,so alsmost anyone in that radius can be hacked to my network.
Doesn't matter how good your protection is - you are STILL vulnerable to hacking.

[Wolfstagg]

I know what point you was making ghost i could also see the pun at the end Unfortunately others did not seem to see it that way. Has for etc what does one expect when DL refuses to listen to reason and ignore etc.3 And expect us to sit here in silence? I thought this was a free country and us Good British citizens have a freedom of speech etc or am i now wrong?

[ghost1987]

Just to let you know I did warn my neighbour about possible attack from my side

[kyy]

Guys, it is a free society (or at least the label says so), the point isn't it. Nobody is trying to shut you up. It's simple math. If you receive a letter like DL's and go online to look for answers and come across a forum with 12000 messages, out of which only 150 are actually meaningful and the rest are "me too", "wave to DL" and "not gonna get us" posts - how easy will it be for you to find what you are looking for? Or if you have something important to share, are you going to post your findings just after " " type messages?

Yes, wi-fi post was a joke and I saw the funny side of it (in fact I wrote something along the same lines previously), and yes, some people just failed to see it. Too bad. The point is - we either turn this into "Hey, we are right, they are wrong, let's get drunk, f*ck em, greedy bastards" or we can at least try and keep it informative and useful for the others.

Just think about it - most of us, who post here, have been following this thread for awhile now, so we can see what's what and fairly easily get the important bits (like that mp3 link) out of the rest of flame. But for somebody who just joined the forum - this all makes little sense. I've suggested previously that some moderation is applied (and indeed it is, as a couple of post have indeed been deleted, rightly so, including one of my clumsy attempts at being funny), but, perhaps, a FAQ at the start of the topic would be a better way to go about it?

Anyways, let's not turn agains each other, we all know what we're fighting here for, so let's not mix our friends with our enemies and keep "a cold head".

[Renegade]

As administrators/moderators we are not going to remove posts that are vaguely on topic but do not break any house rules, this post is a central point for discussion and will vary in validity and usefulness. We have offered several times to pin and lock any new thread made which is kept as a summary of useful information in this thread, leaving this one open for further discussion.

Noone has taken up on that, and the staff here certainly are not going to do it for you. Final time I post in this regard, if the crowding of this thread with pointless info irritates you, create a summary thread, if you can't be bothered then don't complain and live with it as is.

[tohellwithDL]

It would seem self-evident from a legal perspective, that DL should not be placing the onus on those it targets to prove they did not share a file. A UK court would take the view that DL must prove that the person they say shared the file, did in fact share the file. Threatening in this manner without firm proof is shadey at best. As far as I'm concerned, (I'm in my 50s and living with elderly parents), DL can take me to court if they so wish, but I have most certainly NOT downloaded OR shared any files on ANY file sharing network and will, if necessary, submit our hard drives for intensive forensic testing by a reputable data recovery lab prior to the court date with full reports, and ask the court to take these costs into account in a counter-claim. There are just too many flaws in their proof mechanism for it to stand up if properly challenged, and certainly in my case. I am far too old to be playing games, either those made by Atari, or indeed, the games played by Davenport Lyons.

I have long given up worrying about it.

[metoo]

Regarding my last post I did hack that network and it had only an experimental form which proved that even a secured network is easy to crack.
I would never incriminate my neighbour or onyone else.
What I was trying to prove was how good that protection really is.
If I did it easly, then think how many people on your street can do it.
My wireless router have a 50m range,so alsmost anyone in that radius can be hacked to my network.
Doesn't matter how good your protection is - you are STILL vulnerable to hacking.

I suppose DL would argue in court that it would be unlikely someone would hack into a wireless connection to download a computer game. I also think they would spend alot of money on 'friendly' expert witnesses to say that also. I have a friend who is on the official list of expert witnesses for Engineering and he charges £7,000 per report. I would imagine the experts that DL buys cost a similar amount. How is our word going to fare against perhaps 4-5 expert witnesses against 1 person? So my opinion is that we could write in and say wireless connection and hacking all we want, even if it is the truth, it is not going to stand up.

We also know he lawyer route is expensive at £75 plus vat per letter and much much more for court appearances. This is not going to be a workable solution either.

On a more positive note, the only 'proven' method where anyone has had any kind of success is by using PR. I suggest this is the way we should head, as it seems to have an effect. Does anyone else agree?

[Paladwyn]

People would hack into a wifi to download..sure...

Connect to a network, download for a while, move onto another one later...the same person could incriminate multiple individuals.

[Pinball Wizard]

@metoo

I am currently studying for my masters degree in 'Forensic Computing and Security'. Once I have completed the course (successfully) I will be in a position to stand as an expert witness in my area of expertise. I have not yet started the 'IT law' or 'Computer Crime in the Courtroom' modules yet, but I expect them to be very revealing.

[gavilan]

Forget "computer experts". No amount of experts can prove who was using the computer, and DL know this. They don't want to risk taking someone to court who provides an alibi proving that they were somewhere else at the relevant time.

[dedd]

Re: Forum of useful posts etc:
- It would be really good if someone could wade through all the posts and collate the important / useful comments. However I understand that this would take one person a considerable amount of time since there are 120+ pages on the subject now, just on slyck. If people were serious about this then maybe the amount could be split up, but I understand that even this would require a substantial amount of effort. Unfortunately my life has hit a somewhat intense period, where i rarely get a second to sit at a computer (aside from work).
- I actually tried to set up a separate forum at some point with useful points only (and made sure noone made comments that would actually point to the real person), but it failed to take off because having a hidden forum automatically ensures that new receivers of letters would not be able to get help and there was less information because of it.
- In the end I think really, despite all the information that could be provided on the subject, and all the things that one could to do get rid of these filthy lawyers, the simple help on what to do has always been the same, and really that is all (I think, though obviously am not certain, and I guess uncertainty could cost one a lot of money, so there is cause for more research, if one had the time). Something I posted awhile ago, but I'll post it again just for simplicities sake:
"It seems that there are a lot of people appearing on here and panicking as they have just received new letters presumably of the famous "25,000" pirates batch.


General ideas for what people should do with these has remained the same throughout really (i've been in the same boat for almost a year now):

* it is advisable to reply in some simple manner stating that you deny their claims (there are templates in these forums that can be useful, though obviously do not copy them exactly). This ensures that they know you exist, and that you are willing to put up a fight, and should mean that they will not go after you for some "default" ruling in an assumption that you won't turn up to court like the legendary "4 default rulings" (though i'm beginning to doubt these people are real, and are not just a deliberate media stunt to scare people).

* They almost certainly will reply to this with some more scary words, probably involving "duty of care" or "informing your isp of your breach of contract". The more they say, the more they embarass themselves, and it is worth pointing out the flaws in their arguments (again templates and comments in this forum will help). However I don't think any further letters will make a difference.

* It is obvious from people on this forum that they will not take people who respond to court. There are people who have waited 2 years, and no court papers. Their game is therefore to scare people into paying this "settlement" fee and they are making enough fool's gold from this as it is (approx 25,000 letters x 25-40% pay settlement of approx £500 =approx 3.75 million), why risk this? They know they cannot reliably win. If they were to lose a case, their game would be up. I would be extremely surprised if they ever did this, unless the law were to suddenly change to their advantage.

* Please do not pay, you will be perpetuating their game, and forcing many more innocents into the same boat.

Hope that helps a bit, you can take it from someone who is probably further down the DL road of suffering than you (and there are others who are even further down the road, which made me worry less in the first place). If you hear of people (actual defending people) going to court, and losing, then maybe you should could contact them and pay, but not until then."

I'm not sure I will post again for awhile, due to lack of time, but I'll continue to read and see how this all pans out. Good night.

[chris.hoops78]

This forum has degenerated into sh*t.

[boingboing]

This forum has degenerated into sh*t.

I dont agree. I believe it is the only active thread on the subject and there is a lot of useful information contained in it, albeit with some less useful and constructive stuff thrown in. That's a public forum for you I suppose.

But I dont think we should forget who the real baddies are in all this. Irrespective of differing approaches to all this, lets try to stick together and not start fighting against each other. For every calm person there will be a hothead. But we all have the same goal.

For the record I think Ghost's post was not the cleverest I've seen, but he was just trying to make a point i.e. that wireless security is easily hacked. This is entirely relevent to the whole case. I dont think anyone really thought he was going to start downloading stuff, he was just seeing for himself how things could be done. I'm not saying I agree with him doing it, but he was aiming for the same result as everyone else.

Come on guys. We are in this together. Lets not lose sight of who the real bad guys are in all of this mess. And dont forget they are watching us turn into squabbling schoolboys - and probably loving it.

[jokster]

united we stand brothers and sisters