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Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:42 pm
by newlay
Hi all,

I got a letter this morning from Davenport Lyons (acting on behalf of Codemasters) claiming that I have downloaded an unauthorised copy of Colin Mcrae - Dirt over p2p.

I couldnt say one way or the other if the file was downloaded through my internet connection as it is at my business premises connected to a 9 pc network (+ 3 wireless networks) , several people have access to the pc's and a select number of people have access to the wireless networks (including a few friends and trusted customers).

The letter appears to be the same format the ones people received earlier on this year regarding that pinball game. Just wondering how that ended up and If anyone has any advice.

I will reply to the letter and ask for more information as the information/evidence in the letter merely shows the file name and an ip address.



Thanks.

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:40 pm
by spagyi
Hi there!

I have received one as well. I sent an email to DL, for advice, as i did not dovnloaded the game (maybe someone else on my network)

Also I spoke to plusnet, to find out if they provided DL with my data or not. I am just waiting for their responds.

Any advice from you guys?

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:03 pm
by Dazzle_2
My personal opinion on this is to tell them bluntly there is no way in hell you admit liability for infringing copyright on their clients programme.

Make the case clear to them that there are multiple computers operating on the companies network and that whilst you may be the named owner of the account this does not incurr any legal liability for civil/criminal actions committed by others.

To obtain a judgement they will need to prove you offered the program for distribution, merely pointing to other unknown persons on the companies network whom they have not named will undermine their own claims, they have put your name on the claim and must now prove their case against you.

The next hurdle they will have to prove is that even if it was shared from your own machine were you beyond reasonable doubt the person who set up the computer program to offer their programme for download ?

As to showing screen shots of alleged files being shared that alone is not copyright infringement in the EU, to actually prove you committed that act they need to have downloaded a recognisable portion of the file, you are after all being accused of breaching the right "of copy", no copy, no case to answer.

While your at it please ask them to prove they are either the rights holder or ask them to mail you a copy of their authority to act on behalf of the rights holder as some companies extort money in this way without the permission of the rights holder, relying on the victims ignorace of the law to enrich themselves, dont let this happen to you.

Whilst they may not like the truth in this case its plain they cannot prove the necessary two legal hurdles they need to perhaps convince a judge or a jury of your liability.

If the case is as you state I suggest you take my advice above and hold your ground, this is not the US and you will find they may be slow in wishing to take this to court, instead they are likely to move on to simpler rich pickings.

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:14 pm
by spagyi
Lets say they take the case to court. If they do so, they will take the computers from your householt for investigations isn't it? And if they can not find the copy of that game, they will find something else...
Am I right?

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:31 pm
by Kh3ldar
I got the letter today too. From what I have learned reading through the pinball posts, its a carbon copy of the first letter people received plus a few bits from later letters.

Also called BT - after an hour someone finally logged I wanted to know if someone had requested my details based on IP, but I dont hold out much hope they will get back to me (quite useless ....)

Again, from previous posts guess now its a case of ask for the evidence, and proof they are representing codemasters (also might write to codemasters to ask them about it)

Question is, what do I do after they send me the evidence pack. Just ignore them? (Quite scared as well I must admit)

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:52 pm
by spagyi
Well, to be honest, I am scared too. Just to ignore an official letter? I dont think that is the right way to resolve this case. (but i dont know what is the right way?)
As i wrote it, I have spoken to one of the manager from my internet provider with the same question as yours was. He asked me to send a copy of the evidence pack. Hopefully he will get back to me soon.

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:16 pm
by spagyi

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:17 pm
by Gossy
http://uk.reuters.com/article/internetN ... 5420070718

Does seem dodgy about how they managed to get hold of our details considering that the ISPs are under no obligation to part with our details.

Edit: Seems spagyi beat me too it, but I'm rather tempted to just ignore the letters now tbh.

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:26 pm
by spagyi
Gossy! Did you received all letters for the same game, or for diferent softwares?

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:29 pm
by Gossy
All 3 for the same game. With a 36 hour period. I was actually in Dublin at the time mentioned on one of the letters...

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:32 pm
by spagyi
The think is, I wasn't at home, when they monitored theat someone has downloaded the game. The other thing is, the letter says I used UT 1,0,6,1 or something like that version of cliet to download. I know, my housemate is using utorrent software...

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:43 pm
by Golgo1
spagyi wrote:Well, to be honest, I am scared too. Just to ignore an official letter?


One of the reasons I have suspicions this is just an elaborite scam is that nobody has really mentioned that they ARE official letters. (I may be wrong) from what Ive heard, they just come in a plain envelope, on plain paper, maybe done up to look nice, and use big words. They seem a pretty low key office for someone who has monitored traffic, summoned ISPs for personal information, and mass sue thousands(?) of people with VERY little evidence.

If you just received a plain letter out of the blue saying your car injured 20 people so you have to write them a cheque, you would just toss it. just another scam :tinfoilhat:

If anyone has gotten one of the DL letters through registered mail, a real lawyer, or even one that looks like it's more than a DeskJet print out, please feel free to correct me on this.

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:51 pm
by spagyi
Yes, but they obtained our data from the ISP somehow, and for some reason.

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:59 pm
by newlay
They claim in the letter that they have download a full copy of the game from me as proof (6.4gb), I find this very hard to believe as my internet upload speed is so slow any extended upload activity is immediately recognised as it slows the whole network to a crawl, and isnt it impossible or not common to download a file from one particular source over bit torrent, I mean how would they download the file just from me when there were thousnds of other people uploading and downloading it.

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:10 pm
by ritch1
As posted in the other forum we have recieved 4 copies of this letter accusing me of downloading Colin Mcrae's Dirt. Very annoying as they are address to my mother who is the internet account holder, as you can imagine this is causing her stress as well as me as they want £2000.

I am worried as the letters are professionally done and ther is evidence of dates and time that the file was attempted for download.

I guess i will write to them saying the situation will be addressed but as for asking them for proof, dont they already have it?

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:33 pm
by ritch1
ah this is stressing me. I am trying to figure out a letter in response without dropping myself in it. I mean, if i deny the file has been downloaded do the have enough evidence to say it was, they have a file size, times and dates. Not sure how to approach this

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:03 pm
by Kh3ldar
Just thinking out loud, the previous post quotes a size of 6.x GB, mine quotes 4.X GB ... discrepancies ...

Also in the US, dont the MPAA have to download the WHOLE file to show the person is an uploader, not just a joe downloader. In turn doesnt this mean that they must of downloaded the whole file from someone/peoples? Is this just as illegal in the eyes of the law?

Also to alledge that they have downloaded the WHOLE file .... lets do some maths.

6.4GB = 6552.6 MB = 6709862.4 KB

At BEST, an 8Mbit connection only has a 512Kbit or 60KByte upload per second - implying they say they remained connected to a SINGLE client for (at best)

6709862.4 / 60 = 111831.04 seconds or 31.06418 hours.

This is at full upload speed in fantasy land, not intefered with by other upload traffic, contention ratios etc. If my PC remains on for 8 hours a day, thats 4 days nearly to download. What's your ISP's IP lease time? Bet it's not 4 days, and how often do you get the same IP when it's renewed? My Home Hub resets about every 12 hours.

Just thinking out loud ...........

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:06 pm
by Kh3ldar
Also to note, my letters are laser jets at best. Last time I had dealings with a pro solicitor, they came on very expensive paper with proper letter headings.

If anyone has come up with a template for a reply to either the first letter, or the following letter containing the evidence pack, I'd be very interested in seeing them. Thanks!

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:28 pm
by newlay
Can anyone confirm what exactly was in the evidence packs from the letters in march, did it state how long the file had been shared for along with dates or is the info just a specific date and time that was captured.

Im trying to figure out how they could have captured that file on my network, could it have only been on for a few seconds (visitig friend or customers laptop) or would it have to have been showing for a substantial time before it gets logged.

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:37 pm
by piXelatedEmpire
Firstly, I don't believe this is a scam. Davenport Lyons did the same thing with that Dream Pinball 3D game some months back, some people paid, others requested additional information, others simply ditched the letters all together.

From that thread, it appears as tho no-one has actually been taken to court over this, it seems the idea is to scare people into paying the fine to avoid expensive legal costs. So far, AFAIK, no-one has actually been taken to court in the Dream Pinball 3D affair.

I'm not going to make any recommendations about how you should treat this issue, but from all accounts it is not a scam. Perhaps your best bet is to seek legal advice or research further on the outcomes of those letters from the initial scenario.

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:35 pm
by ShawnSpree
First of all.
This letter is sent to scare you.
Make you pay and settle now without costing them any money other then the fee they pay to the ISP for the information.
Now this is the tough part, dont admit guilt and dont reply directly to it. You can later explain fishing attempts and scam.
Next, wise up. Quit giving us file sharers a bad name in not being honest to us.. Telling us that your network is unsecured, and 9 pc's attached and various people having access. Your a geek, you have admin power, you can control your wifi settings.
The best thing to do, grow up and move on to a better network then public sites and start using newsgroups. There is no way you will survive the p2p realm if you download a low budget game/app or software.. Shit, you know how many copies of shit i had to download because i keep losing it or someone later wants it.. ANd its the big 5 CORPS of America.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:20 pm
by MrFredPFL
in spite of having no evidence to support yourself whatsoever, you just called someone a liar. i cannot stop the RIAA from doing that, but it's not acceptable behavior here, shawn.

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:43 am
by newlay
[quote="ShawnSpree"]First of all.
Telling us that your network is unsecured, and 9 pc's attached and various people having access. Your a geek, you have admin power, you can control your wifi settings.
quote]

I never said my network was unsecured , all 3 of my wi-fi access points are to the best of my knowledge protected as best they can be, I'm sure you will also know that this doesnt mean a great deal as its easy to decrypt a wep key with the right software (I know because I've done it), the only thing I cant control is what people do when they are using one of the pc's or connected to the wi-fi network, Am I supposed to stand over every person watching their every move.

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:57 am
by enigmax
I encourage all recipients of these emails to contact me on enigmax[at]torrentfreak.com with every detail you think will be of use to me. I guarantee your privacy and *anything* you wish me to hold confidential, I will respect.

I've written countless articles about Davenport and their data-gatherers 'Logistep' and I have lots of contacts that will be of use to you in dealing with these threats. Please try to structure your emails in a logical way. Cheers

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:21 am
by PDX
Hi all,

I also received a copy of this letter yesterday. I would urge people not to pay it, as paying this is an admission of guilt and could leave you open to many other legal issues.

I am in the process of writing a letter denying these accusations and asking they provide me with undeniable proof I commited this crime, I am also going to ask them where in UK law it states I am responsible for running a firewall, anti-virus and network security otherwise I will be liable for the illegal use of my internet connection.

I have also contacted BBC Watchdog as previous people involved in the Pinball case have to try to raise awareness of this ridiculous saga. I also intend to contact trading standards, ofcom and my ISP who "provided" them with my details without informing me first. I also am seeking legal advice from a solicitor.

I was also wondering would we get any coverage in the UK press if enough people wrote to them concerning this as this company obviously thinks they can go around bullying people into admitting guilt to a crime they have not commited and make a tidy sum whilst doing so.

To quote many other users "what happened to innocent until proven guilty" it's more like "guilty until you prove your innocent".

I will keep people updated with my progress on this as I hope other will do also.

Good luck people and don't pay up to a company who are breaching your privacy and human rights.