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Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

For discussion of the threatened legal action surrounding the alleged filesharing of pornography, computer games and music. (Golden Eye Int LTD / GEIL / MIRCOM / TCYK)
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I've received a letter, what should I do? and Davenport Lyons - What can we do as a group?

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby sharp910sh » Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:57 am

Fenrix wrote:I agree this is horrendously scary, BUT at the end of the day, this just proves how bad it can be if you DONT reply and deny their claims. This woman got a default, by not defending, DL can ask for anything they want, they asked for the max they could in this istance and as the woman wasnt there, they got it. IF you reply and deny it, they will NOT take you to court.

Lesson from this to everyone should be , dont get a default against you as you will be in the whole for 16k.



I was told before and o this website to ignore the letters. Now you are saying not too. So I shuld just tell them I did not download it, etc.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Fenrix » Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:57 am

Topware Interactive has won more than £16,000 following legal action against Isabella Barwinska of London, who shared a copy of Dream Pinball 3D.

Three other suspected sharers of the game are awaiting damages hearings.


I assume that this person is part of the original 4 defaulters, and the other 3 cases are waiting to be heard for the costs payments....
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby IL1 » Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:16 am

Don't panic folks.

I admit, I too felt a bit sick when I read the BBC website article first thing this morning but now I've had time to reflect and think.

I wouldn't rely upon the BBC website or the other websites reporting this without much fuller information. I'm not saying that this judgment didn't happen but I am increasingly unhappy about the BBCs standards of journalism and the BBC page report on this reads more like a copy of a Davenport-Lyons press release than independent reporting of the facts and background. It certainly looks at the moment like one of the 4 default judgments that we already knew about, the only thing that has changed is that the judge has decided the fine and costs for one of the 4 default judgments that we already knew about.

This is just a propaganda coup for Davenport-Lyons aided and abetted by the news websites and DL will milk it as much as possible to help scare as many others as possible into paying £500, £600, £700 whatever to settle. That's their way of working, if they wanted to pursue people into the courts and had good cases then they would have done it months ago. They want to frighten people into settling out of court, its the easy, safe way for them.

As others have said, thank you Slyck for a fantastic support network for this issue and especially Enigmax who is a source of great calm and reassurance - as always, his post has got it spot on. DL have scored a propaganda victory that will help scare more people into settling and DL will milk it for all it is worth because of that but basically the situation hasn't changed. (Unless I see much better information to the contrary).

The interesting thing is that they claim to have issued proceedings against another 100 people - has anybody posting or lurking here received an actual summons? No, thought not, so who are the '100'?

If you are innocent then don't be intimidated. Even if you aren't strictly innocent, I still deplore their tactics that are just legalised intimidation.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby boingboing » Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:19 am

I assume that this person is part of the original 4 defaulters, and the other 3 cases are waiting to be heard for the costs payments....


Thats certainly my understanding. Nothing new really, except the figures. Unfortunately DL have both the scary headlines and momentum now.

I dont know what to do. How can you pay for something you haven't done, but then how can you risk losing and having to pay costs like that. They are free to send out completely random letters to totally random innocent people now and people will still pay feel forced to pay up. And its going to get worse. Now anybody who wants to download illegal stuff will be hacking wireless connections instead of using their own connection, so the whole thing is going to escalate out of all control.

I still feel 99% sure that I can prove my innocence in court, but can I risk the 1%. Its a pretty shocking situation.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby hambut_bulge » Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:29 am

Fenrix wrote:
Topware Interactive has won more than £16,000 following legal action against Isabella Barwinska of London, who shared a copy of Dream Pinball 3D.

Three other suspected sharers of the game are awaiting damages hearings.


I assume that this person is part of the original 4 defaulters, and the other 3 cases are waiting to be heard for the costs payments....


Yes but further on down the BBC article it says
Some of those accused of sharing the game chose to fight the legal action and it was in one of these contested cases [my emphasis] that Topware Interactive won its claim for damages.

"This is a proper Intellectual Property (IP) court that has made this judgement," said independent IP barrister David Harris. "The previous ones were default judgements where defendants never turned up."

The hearing in the IP court meant the case had been rigorously analysed and the law properly understood, said Mr Harris.

"It's a much more interesting case in that respect," he said.


I must admit I thought this was one of the four we knew about previously, but Mr Harris' comments are that this is new.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby SteveyG » Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:15 am

sharp910sh wrote:
keefy wrote:
sharp910sh wrote:so what do we do, i would pay 500 quid rather than 16k.

I was close to paying the £500 before I read this. Now I'm even closer. This is scary to say the least.



I may just pay, do you think i can still pay even though its been like 3 months?



DONT DONT DONT!
It's insane to feel you want to pay again! It's just another scare tactic, DL have NOOOOooooo chance of taking us to court! They havnt won a single case yet! They have merely won default judgements by people who did not turn up, most probably because they were paid off!! It is propaganda! The feeling of wanting to pay is the same feeling you got when you first recieved your letter, it's merely dread and fear of the unknown! Nothing has changed, the only difference is that now we know the max they can fine us. The other 3 cases prob only got fined a cupla hundred pounds.

Folks, this should not scare you, you should be able to see the DL bluff tactic! It's just another scare tactic and propaganda. If it was so easy for DL to take us to court then they would have done it! They wouldn't even bother to send you letters!!!

Please don't pay! Calm down and relax and understand that this is all just a scare game, I'll be next to go to court and I am NOT worried, so take comfort in knowing that I will be to court before you and I will DESTROY DL in the court! Then I will come onto this forum and tell you all everything! DO NOT FEAR! This is a sign that DL are getting desperate! If anything you should feel more relaxed and a little bit amused!
* "Davenport Lyons" and/or "Davenport-Lyons" and/or "Davenporn Lyons"
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby sharp910sh » Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:19 am

DONT DONT DONT!
It's insane to feel you want to pay again! It's just another scare tactic, DL have NOOOOooooo chance of taking us to court! They havnt won a single case yet! They have merely won default judgements by people who did not turn up, most probably because they were paid off!! It is propaganda! The feeling of wanting to pay is the same feeling you got when you first recieved your letter, it's merely dread and fear of the unknown! Nothing has changed, the only difference is that now we know the max they can fine us. The other 3 cases prob only got fined a cupla hundred pounds.

Folks, this should not scare you, you should be able to see the DL bluff tactic! It's just another scare tactic and propaganda. If it was so easy for DL to take us to court then they would have done it! They wouldn't even bother to send you letters!!!

Please don't pay! Calm down and relax and understand that this is all just a scare game, I'll be next to go to court and I am NOT worried, so take comfort in knowing that I will be to court before you and I will DESTROY DL in the court! Then I will come onto this forum and tell you all everything! DO NOT FEAR! This is a sign that DL are getting desperate! If anything you should feel more relaxed and a little bit amused![/quote][/quote][/quote]

So DL only won because the people didn't turn up?
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Billy Smart » Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:47 am

boingboing wrote:
I still feel 99% sure that I can prove my innocence in court, but can I risk the 1%. Its a pretty shocking situation.


I can only speak for myself here BUT if i were innocent or guilty the thought of not defending myself against the allegations would drive me to an early grave.

If people have done wrong how does it make it any lesser an offence by paying DL ???? .Financially for them IF they were to be found guilty yes it would make sense,but to pay out to what is an extortion racket to all extent and purposes would be madness.

This is what DL are preying on that people will be gulled by these tactics and give in.

Its a shame that some sort of fighting fund and a lawyer who specialises cant take up a test case on peoples behalf....

IMO davenport should pass all evidence of wrong doing on the scale they say they have, to the police rather than dragging this out over many years as it leaves people with no way to defend themselves ,how many people have detailed computer logs for example going back 2 years....

I for one would never forgive myself for not fighting them even if i were guilty i would make them prove there case which up to press they havent.We will no doubt see in due course whether this current case is in fact any different or it is just a re hash of previous stories,which our press seem quite adept at doing.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby hipraptor » Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:49 am

So she has no money, how does she pay £16,000 grand?

Maybe a pound a week, because if she has no property etc and as people no longer go to jail for debts, which is what this will become as it is only county court, not a criminal court, if she cannot pay DL have won nothing in pounds for their clients.

As for being a land mark case, well the report states: "It is understood that she did not file share for commercial profit or gain - but took files to share with friends and was given 28 days to settle the judgement."

So she was guilty, unlike some others here, as she shared the game with friends, it says.

So if you are not guilty for god's sake do not pay up.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby boingboing » Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:12 am

Yeah, but its pretty scary for someone who owns their own house and has a wife and kids to support. Its no different to being mugged at knifepoint. I absolutely shouldn't pay up, but the consequences of not doing to my family are potentially disastrous.

I totally agree what they are doing is nothing better than stealing off me, but I need to balance that against the risk they may 'steal' even more in a crazy UK court later on.

For what its worth I haven't decided what to do. As you say it may well destroy me to know that I'd paid up for something I hadn't done.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby dedd » Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:21 am

I agree with Boingboing - it would literally ruin my life and all I have worked for over the last few years if DL were to sue me for that much money. I can't risk that happening, and may be forced into paying purely to ensure that can't happen.
What I do think however is the following:
- Even if you do pay, is it really a guarantee they won't just proceed anyway?
- Even if you do pay, since I'm innocent of doing anything in the first place, how can I know they will not just throw another story at me? If I paid the first time, why would I not the second.

Something is seriously wrong here, and it is making me doubt whether I even want to stay in this country anymore. Maybe move to somewhere where the government and law protects its citizens.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby boingboing » Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:32 am

Even if you do pay, since I'm innocent of doing anything in the first place, how can I know they will not just throw another story at me? If I paid the first time, why would I not the second.


Thats my biggest concern. I didn't do this myself so it is either DL/logistep making a mistake or someone else has used my connection somehow. If it is the latter, then god only knows what else they have done. By paying the money once I'd effectively be owning up to a crime I didn't commit once, so would that not just open the floodgates and then I'd not be able to deny them as they'd say I'd already admitted doing it before. Catch 22 really. I really wouldn't put it past them to just make stuff up now - seems like a licence to print money either way.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby sharp910sh » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:08 am

So who is going to pay?
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Paladwyn » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:29 am

If you do pay their settlement...they cannot continue any further with that case.

However, ou have just admitted to doing something wrong, and you haven't. Which means they could easilly say you did it again and demand even more, and yes...since you admitted to it once, you would do it again...right?
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby bushpig » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:42 am

ok, should i be worried about this??

im thinking no but i cant help it, im on a wireless network and its possible that this game has been downloaded through it (not by me though)

i cant help feeling anxious with a mortgage and 2 kids and a wifey, i could lose the lot if it went to court through no fault of my own.

if it wasnt for sites like this one i may have given up months ago :(
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby sharp910sh » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:53 am

bushpig wrote:ok, should i be worried about this??

im thinking no but i cant help it, im on a wireless network and its possible that this game has been downloaded through it (not by me though)

i cant help feeling anxious with a mortgage and 2 kids and a wifey, i could lose the lot if it went to court through no fault of my own.

if it wasnt for sites like this one i may have given up months ago :(


When did you get your first letter?
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby bubbster » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:54 am

Do NOT pay if you are innocent. Payment puts money in their pocket and strengthens their cause.

As anyone who has received court papers will tell you, there is a statement on the papers in large, typed print warning you that if you do not reply you will be held accountable to the plaintiff's accusations even if you are innocent. Basically, if this case was one of the four who did not bother replying, they are guilty by default - DL wouldn't even have to present any evidence.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby sharp910sh » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:05 am

bubbster wrote:Do NOT pay if you are innocent. Payment puts money in their pocket and strengthens their cause.

As anyone who has received court papers will tell you, there is a statement on the papers in large, typed print warning you that if you do not reply you will be held accountable to the plaintiff's accusations even if you are innocent. Basically, if this case was one of the four who did not bother replying, they are guilty by default - DL wouldn't even have to present any evidence.



Should i sent them a letter saying im innocent then?
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Paladwyn » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:10 am

sharp910sh wrote:
bubbster wrote:Do NOT pay if you are innocent. Payment puts money in their pocket and strengthens their cause.

As anyone who has received court papers will tell you, there is a statement on the papers in large, typed print warning you that if you do not reply you will be held accountable to the plaintiff's accusations even if you are innocent. Basically, if this case was one of the four who did not bother replying, they are guilty by default - DL wouldn't even have to present any evidence.



Should i sent them a letter saying im innocent then?


Read through some of the earlier posts on how to word it to suit your case, but in short:

Yes
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby bubbster » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:15 am

Personally, I would have replied immediately on receiving a letter refuting any and all accusations they had made against me. It's important to remember that no judge has even examined their "evidence" yet if this case was indeed one of the four - it was granted by default.

However, I understand the apprehension & worry that you face when these amounts are thrown about so lightly by news stories. To be the first test case in a court of law would indeed be very stressful if it got that far.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby SlyckTom » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:19 am

The decision was apparently made on July 22nd...I've scoured the web for the last 2 hours trying to find it so I can write something that doesn't draw on press releases or other sources, but no avail. Anyone have link or more info?
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby sharp910sh » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:20 am

Paladwyn wrote:
sharp910sh wrote:
bubbster wrote:Do NOT pay if you are innocent. Payment puts money in their pocket and strengthens their cause.

As anyone who has received court papers will tell you, there is a statement on the papers in large, typed print warning you that if you do not reply you will be held accountable to the plaintiff's accusations even if you are innocent. Basically, if this case was one of the four who did not bother replying, they are guilty by default - DL wouldn't even have to present any evidence.



Should i sent them a letter saying im innocent then?


Read through some of the earlier posts on how to word it to suit your case, but in short:

Yes


alright, cheers. Initially i was told on this site I should ignore it. I did so. seems like I will have to write a letter.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Naujoks » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:34 am

Let's just make it clear, that poor woman was NOT one of the default cases, but she contested the accusation:

BBC website quote: "Some of those accused of sharing the game chose to fight the legal action and it was in one of these contested cases that Topware Interactive won its claim for damages."

And for me, that is a really scary thing.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby sharp910sh » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:44 am

Naujoks wrote:Let's just make it clear, that poor woman was NOT one of the default cases, but she contested the accusation:

BBC website quote: "Some of those accused of sharing the game chose to fight the legal action and it was in one of these contested cases that Topware Interactive won its claim for damages."

And for me, that is a really scary thing.


So I'm going to have to pay. Unless I can prove without doubt I didn't download it.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby eldard » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:45 am

Just got an email from the reporter from the Metro that covered this story (http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.htm ... _a_source=) saying that it is one of the people from the original default judgments but can't give out any more information?

Either he's lying or this is the result of the push from DL to get more damages awarded from the previous case.

Anyway this whole thing is a bit of a mess, causing a lot of confusion.
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