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Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

For discussion of the threatened legal action surrounding the alleged filesharing of pornography, computer games and music. (Golden Eye Int LTD / GEIL / MIRCOM / TCYK)
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I've received a letter, what should I do? and Davenport Lyons - What can we do as a group?

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Paladwyn » Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:43 pm

muzza_isgod wrote:HELP PLEASE.

I am at the end of my tether. I have a psychiatriac condition and the stress has set it off! I am suicidal and only my kids are keeping me alive. I hate all this, everything was swimming before and all of this has put me back years. I am up from one set of sedatives to three now just to get through the day. MAN COMMITS SUICIDE because of innocence, bullying tactics by law firm DL. Just think how proud their mothers will be. Someone bring this to and end before I do.


Well, don't let it bug you...as if you are innocent, you should end up not having much to worry about.

On a different note, I suggest seeking help from a more professional area to deal with the rest. I would hate to see this go that far, but I don't know if anyone here is qualified to deal with that apsect of this.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby MrX » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:09 pm

Hi guys,

just wanted to let you know about the whole Information (=Data) Commissioner stuff I have been talking about earlier.

As I was coming to around 70% of the letter I was about to send them I had a look at their site to see What the best way is to present it to them (e.g. with an official form, what documents to send with the letter). Of course the site, as good and informative as it is, couldn't really help me there, so I decided to phone them up, quickly tell them the problem and ask them how they want to have it.

I got a quite knowledgable lady on the phone, she seemed to actually listen to what I was saying and in addition to that understand it as well. After 10 minutes or so she spoke to another guy in the office and told me then that she can't do anything really. Nice. Logistep is in Switzerland, DL is only acting on behalf of the software company, in my case Atari in France. The only thing I can do is to contact the French data commissioner she said. Unfortunately that doesn't help me much in a UK court and does not hurt DL a bit. And we can't go after every software company DL does or will act for, this is not really helping. At last I asked her if in the case of actual court proceedings those can be stopped in regard to the outstanding judgement in Switzerland, on which she answered that is for the judge to decide.

She does sound right in her estimation, but it's somehow not right. DL are just rogues who know their stuff, so they set up a subsidiary company in Switzerland. That alone should get the judges attention. I am just so happy that the case is quite advanced in Switzerland, and I personally don't doubt how it will end. Nevertheless I would like to encourage anybody else to give the Information Commissioner here in the UK a call or write a letter, if they get 2000 calls about that they might start to wonder. (http://www.ico.gov.uk/, 08456 30 60 60 or 01625 54 57 45)

My next action will be to write the Solicitors Regulation Authority a letter (this time I won't call), highlighting which rules DL have breeched by sending out these letters. It's worth a shot I think.

Very interesting stuff concerning Sky by the way, good work!Then my initial thought was right that they don't have to comply, at least not so easily. Problem is that most of the ISPs are working together with DL (someone even said he has seen 'evidence' that DL paid one ISP a good amount of money for a list of ISPs, which would explain why Logistep refuses to be audited, because they don't even have a monitoring program, just thinking out loud though). In my case of the 870£ I shall pay only 500£ go to Atari, the rest - sweet 370£ - go to my ISP (Orange) to cover their expenses. There is money to be made, and a lot ISPs are in there, first cashing you for your line, then getting even more cash for what you did or did not do. From the 18 ISPs that are listed on the court order to release my other personal data only 1 (one, uno, eins, ...) said they want to be heard... that's embarassing, they just sell you to the highest bidder. Time to open your own ISP. :D

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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby eldard » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:35 pm

MrX wrote: DL are just rogues who know their stuff, so they set up a subsidiary company in Switzerland. That alone should get the judges attention.


Hate to break it to you but DL does not own any part of Logistep. They (Logistep) have been working (supplying questionable "evidence") with quite a few lawyers across Europe, hence the reason why there are multiple rulings in different countries about Logisteps "evidence" (i.e. France/Italy).

MrX wrote:Problem is that most of the ISPs are working together with DL (someone even said he has seen 'evidence' that DL paid one ISP a good amount of money for a list of ISPs, which would explain why Logistep refuses to be audited, because they don't even have a monitoring program, just thinking out loud though). In my case of the 870£ I shall pay only 500£ go to Atari, the rest - sweet 370£ - go to my ISP (Orange) to cover their expenses.


When the ISPs get the Norwich Pharmacal order through the court system (a copy of which you should of got with your letter) they obviously have to comply, at this point DL already have the list of IP addresses they want linked to peoples names by the ISP so suggesting otherwise would be counterproductive. Due to the data protection act the ISPs are allowed to charge a small fee for the time it takes them to link the IPs to the names on their databases.

I would really question £370 going to Orange in your case because this seems excessive, perhaps this is something you should include in your letter to the Solicitors Regulation Authority because I'd find it hard to believe an ISP would consider that a reasonable fee (in other cases it's been in the region of £15 to £30).


Sorry to seem so negative but there's no point you putting effort into certain things without the truth, although I do applaud the effort you've put into trying to sort this out.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Paladwyn » Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:18 pm

I have a few questions...

#1 - Do they claim, or have ANY evidence pointing towards them having your MAC address? If they do, have they divulged that information to the defendants? I mean, I can claim I have video proof of you downloading the game too...but if they aren't willing to divulge, then they are lying...and that won't go well for them. If they have the information and holding it, that also looks bad, because then it proves thay are in it for the money, and not accepting any real disputes.

#2 - Was it not passes that IP's are personal information - and in being so, cannot give the information out under any circumstance other than for a criminal investigation? Or was that Europe and not the UK?
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Duracell » Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:42 pm

In the info enclosed with my letter it says...

"...IP address (Personal Data)..."
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby eldard » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:08 pm

Paladwyn wrote:I have a few questions...

#1 - Do they claim, or have ANY evidence pointing towards them having your MAC address? If they do, have they divulged that information to the defendants? I mean, I can claim I have video proof of you downloading the game too...but if they aren't willing to divulge, then they are lying...and that won't go well for them. If they have the information and holding it, that also looks bad, because then it proves thay are in it for the money, and not accepting any real disputes.

#2 - Was it not passes that IP's are personal information - and in being so, cannot give the information out under any circumstance other than for a criminal investigation? Or was that Europe and not the UK?


With regards to #1 they don't have any information regarding MAC addresses nor claim to. To get such information they would have to some how access the IPs router and get its log files which would be nigh on impossible, let alone illegal with regards to the Computer Misuse Act.

And as for #2 this link ought to clarify:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/01/31 ... _bpi_data/
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Paladwyn » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:23 pm

Thanks Eldard...

To recap, point #1 - The don't have MAC addresses, and they cannot claim to have them is the consensus so far.

point #2 - There is a yes, they are poersonal information, but they can get them for a fee due to a procedure to keep copyright infringements out of the courts. That's fine and dandy, but this method is just delaying the inevitable, they are threatening to take many people to court, so problem far from solved.

If mroe people wanna put in their 2 cents...go nuts.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby hipraptor » Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:41 pm

verytired wrote:have more people contacted Watchdog about this, i still think the more people do the more seriously they will take it. just a thought.



Watchdog have been aware of DL from the start of the pinball saga, as I and others made them aware of what was going on, for some reason Watchdog does not seem to be interested.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby hipraptor » Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:45 pm

With all the business in the US at the moment about internet secuirty, it makes one wonder what else Logistep gets upto, is it possible for them to be actually trying to hack into people's computers etc.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby SteveyG » Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:28 am

hipraptor wrote:With all the business in the US at the moment about internet secuirty, it makes one wonder what else Logistep gets upto, is it possible for them to be actually trying to hack into people's computers etc.


Wouldn't put it past them, they're in it for the money...not for the "Good of the British Economy". So if there's money involved then, yeah, I'd say they would be prepaired to put stuff on the net to 'set us up'.

Is there any word yet on how our IPs were picked up by DL? Do you think (which is most probable) that our wifis were hacked, DL are just fishing or is it possible that our IPs were accidently mixed in with the illegal distributers through perhaps other file sharing matters....I'm not big on this stuff. I've just assumed I was hacked.

I've written a pretty decent an strong letter and had it proof read by someone on these forums. What's the best way to send it? By going down to the Post Office and paying a bit extra to have DL sign for it?
* "Davenport Lyons" and/or "Davenport-Lyons" and/or "Davenporn Lyons"
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby MrX » Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:04 am

Just a quick reply:

When the ISPs get the Norwich Pharmacal order through the court system (a copy of which you should of got with your letter) they obviously have to comply, at this point DL already have the list of IP addresses they want linked to peoples names by the ISP so suggesting otherwise would be counterproductive.


In my copy it says that one of the 18 ISP made use of their right to question this judgment (which has been ruled on the ground of prima facie evidence), that means basically that the judg asks the ISP: do you have anything against that? If not, judgment done in favor of DL. If yes, then the ISP gets a hearing and can argue why they don't want to reveal this data, e.g. on not enough or not accurate enough evidence.

In Germany the most ISPs did this and didn't have to reveal this information. Just wanted to mention, as I know this is the UK. Even so, I don't have the legal paragraph at hand, an ISP does have the right to stand up for their customers and question the application by DL. As I said, only one of the ISPs did it. Once the Norwich Pharmacal order is through (nobody else wants to heard or the judge rules despite of an ISPs opposition), then they have to reaveal the information, no question then.

Thanks for the info that Logistep is not a subsidiary although I am not so sure about that (there are many ways a company can be linked). The solicitor banned in France was from DL as well, as far as I know. And Logistep being a subsidiary of DL doesn't mean they can't work together with other agencies. However I don't say that they are and after your post most certainly won't, but I like a question mark behind that, if you please. :)

Thanks for your answer though, much appreciated.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby hipraptor » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:53 am

I know for sure that my ISP did not challenge the court order to cough up information, I will be taking them to task sooner or later on this, but only after DL take court action and lose or the authorties wake up in the UK and rule what Logistep are doing is illegal, thus putting DL' s actions and those of ISP's in the illegal frame.

Which will I think will happen as for sure what DL and Logistep are upto is for sure not legal in the true sense of the word as it for sure must be breaking human rights laws as they are infriging not only people's privacy, but also making out people are guilty of something they are not.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby enigmax » Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:59 am

Investigators tracking down those responsible for terrorist bombings in India that killed 42 people managed to identify the source of an email claiming responsibility. When they raided the building they found not a terrorist cell but a bunch of confused (and presumably worried) Americans. The expat workers had set up a wireless network without adequate security and failed to change default passwords. As a result their Internet link had been used to send an email claiming responsibility for the attacks.
http://www.smoothwall.net/news/newsitem.php?id=1498

...........and all the americans got arrested, blamed for the terrorist attacks, and locked up.

of course not :roll:
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Paladwyn » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:27 am

But they ARE responsible for their connection under the new DL-Logistep law they made up, it probably would have been a bigger deal if they downloaded Dream Pinball too :)
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Pinball Sucks » Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:22 pm

[quote="MrX"]Just a quick reply:

[quote]In my copy it says that one of the 18 ISP made use of their right to question this judgment (which has been ruled on the ground of prima facie evidence), that means basically that the judg asks the ISP: do you have anything against that? If not, judgment done in favor of DL. If yes, then the ISP gets a hearing and can argue why they don't want to reveal this data, e.g. on not enough or not accurate enough evidence.
[\quote]
Which ISP questioned the judgement? In an ideal world all the ISPs should have had their customers interests at heart, rather than the £50 or so they could get from looking in some spreadsheet, and should have challenged the judgement. I for one would be tempted to switch my customer to that ISP.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport

Postby tomos » Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:16 am

Sorry I been quiet for a bit,, busy here at home at the moment...
So, I did responed to DL , the same as many others,,, awaiting to see if I get the cut and paste reply about not taking advice from the Internet forums etc , or maybe they will want to see my equipment :shock:

Will let you know if and when I get my next letter ... I would like the take my equipment one :) I can rearly play on that one,,
Man.. how do those idiots even know you have the same computer (s) from 8 months back ... geesh
Clasping at straws... Gona PM the guys who have PM,ed me :)


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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby hipraptor » Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:33 am

I think it is about time we stopped DL reading what we have to say, of course a forum would need to be created that had some legal bit that forbid anyone from DL or anyone working on there behalf from entering and even viewing the forum, so it would have to be password prtected, problem is of course that soem of us here may be moles fro DL and may even be posting with iffy information which may work in favour of DL.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby bunnox223 » Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:05 am

agreed

they are defo watching this forum
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Paladwyn » Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:21 am

I don't think it's a bad thing...so they end up knowing what we are going to say, it doesn't change the fact that most of you are innocent.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby MrFredPFL » Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:50 am

raptor: you yourself see the problem, but perhaps you don't realize how insurmountable it is. how would you suggest anyone who sets that up screen who is allowed to access it?
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Paladwyn » Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:10 pm

They are watching this forum, as well as all the other forums pertaining to this. They are not stupid, and they know what they are up against...the thing is, they think WE are stupid and will just roll over.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Billy Smart » Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:34 pm

IMO It is far more important that people who need help see this forum and use the information in it,than the fact that DL can see it.
The more people that dont pay up for their extortion the better DL have no case to take to court otherwise they would already have done it.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby enigmax » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:51 am

Without these threads (thankyou Slyck) many people would have no support structure at all.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby MajorMellons » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:11 pm

enigmax wrote:Without these threads (thankyou Slyck) many people would have no support structure at all.


Seconded.

This site was a great source of info, when this all kicked off.

Along with your help too, enigmax....Cheers. :toast:
* "Davenport Lyons" and/or "Davenport-Lyons" and/or "Davenporn Lyons"
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby fishslice » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:21 pm

apologies if this has been mentioned already, but PCFormat have run some story about DL suing 4 people in court for three or four grand. Have they done this or have they got their facts wrong?
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