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Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

For discussion of the threatened legal action surrounding the alleged filesharing of pornography, computer games and music. (Golden Eye Int LTD / GEIL / MIRCOM / TCYK)
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I've received a letter, what should I do? and Davenport Lyons - What can we do as a group?

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby david375 » Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:01 am

I have also recived a letter yesterday morning from Davenport Lyons claiming that I have downloaded an unauthorised copy of Colin Mcrae.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby PDX » Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:02 am

david375 wrote:I have also recived a letter yesterday morning from Davenport Lyons claiming that I have downloaded an unauthorised copy of Colin Mcrae.



Hi David,

What are your intentions in relation to this accusation?

Regards,

PDX
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby SERGESTORMS » Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:30 am

i know nothing about legal matters but if the letter arrived through the mail & a person did not sign to verify they had received it then what is to stop the recipient simply throwing the letter in the rubbish bin?
and the same for any subsequent letters that arrived without proof of delivery-after all how could the footpads who sent it prove they ever arrived safely?
and what is to prevent the recipient of a signature on delivery simply changing their signature somewhat so that in the eventuality of it coming before the courts a handwriting expert would be necessary to prove the intended recipient had indeed received it?
i wish all those who have received these letters all the very best in good luck when & if they decide to become involved with these shit herders.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby PDX » Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:34 am

SERGESTORMS wrote:i know nothing about legal matters but if the letter arrived through the mail & a person did not sign to verify they had received it then what is to stop the recipient simply throwing the letter in the rubbish bin?
and the same for any subsequent letters that arrived without proof of delivery-after all how could the footpads who sent it prove they ever arrived safely?
and what is to prevent the recipient of a signature on delivery simply changing their signature somewhat so that in the eventuality of it coming before the courts a handwriting expert would be necessary to prove the intended recipient had indeed received it?
i wish all those who have received these letters all the very best in good luck when & if they decide to become involved with these shit herders.


I understand what you mean by part of your point, the main issue as you say there is no proof you have ever received this document and would expect that a solicitor would send it by recorded mail just to ensure they have that to back them up.

In the case of changing your signature I don't think this would really work as they have the proof that somebody at your address signed for the letter but that's irrelevant due to Davenport Lyons sending none of there letters by recorded post.

Cheers for your reply
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby ritch1 » Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:39 am

they say that have have undeniable proof in the from of IP addresses, date and times, port numbers, packet details and files size. That is why I going to being very cautious about my reply to deny these allegations, if denied surely they will just say they have all these details?

One way or another it is certain that anyone who has recieved this letter has connected with the torrent to download Colin Mcrae Dirt whether they knew it or not. They have details to prove the torrent was used but i would like to know if that is enough to sent out multiple letters amounting to £2000 worth of fines.

I think its outragous really, if people were to pay these fines imagine the amount of money these B#####ds will make out of it, and using people that may have little knowledge of computer technology is very low.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby PDX » Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:47 am

ritch1 wrote:they say that have have undeniable proof in the from of IP addresses, date and times, port numbers, packet details and files size. That is why I going to being very cautious about my reply to deny these allegations, if denied surely they will just say they have all these details?

One way or another it is certain that anyone who has recieved this letter has connected with the torrent to download Colin Mcrae Dirt whether they knew it or not. They have details to prove the torrent was used but i would like to know if that is enough to sent out multiple letters amounting to £2000 worth of fines.

I think its outragous really, if people were to pay these fines imagine the amount of money these B#####ds will make out of it, and using people that may have little knowledge of computer technology is very low.


I could be wrong but I think we have don't have alot to worry about if the Dream Pinball incident is anything to go by, as it is almost a carbon copy of the letter sent with that, except including a "experts report" which looks and sounds about as proffesional as something I would wipe my behind with after using the toilet. The explanations in it appear to be written by a middle school child who is studying for foundation IT. Are you the guy who's mother has received this? Just make sure she doesn't pay it does have some legal founding but is treading on extremely shakey evidence and possible even illegal in some cases.

Get you mother to write a letter saying to her best knowlegde nobody within you household has downloaded this and that the only way she could see this happening is through a mistake on their part or the fact your internet connection was comprimised and as far as she is aware knowhere in UK law does it state a internet connection must be secured with anti-virus, firewall and network security or you will be liable to legal proceedings for misuse of your connection.

From the previous Pinball incident most people received up to three letters ending in March and haven't heard anything since so hopefully this will be the same. It's a good money maker if you can appreciate things like that becuase most people innocent or not will be too scared not to pay.

Also in regards to the evidence they hold I presume all they have is the information you currently have which are almost identical from previous issues and (I have no legal experience) would probably not stand up in court, ask for there undeniable proof in evidence that they have (which they have to provided I hear) and see what comes through from them, which will probably just another demand for the money which they seem so hungry for.

I keep wondering did a game such as Colin Mcrae Dirt not sell so well or is it due to the death of the great rally driver that they see profits dropping in the future?
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby ritch1 » Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:48 am

yep I am the guy whose mother got it. I think i will draft a first letter for her similar to what you suggested. Denying it and asking for proof that they downloaded a 6GB file from her connection 4 times.

so it seems they pick certain games, Colin Mccrae being one of them, I wonder how many other people may be targetted. It seems to me that they are abusing somekind of loop hole that allows them to do this, hopefully and end will be put to it. Accsuing innocent people cant go on surly
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby spagyi » Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:56 am

I have sent letters to my ISP, an DL, but they didn't get back to me yet.
Was anyone lucky to get answers?
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby PDX » Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:07 am

spagyi wrote:I have sent letters to my ISP, an DL, but they didn't get back to me yet.
Was anyone lucky to get answers?


I presume with people only getting the letters yesterday it could be sometime before we get replies.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby newlay » Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:17 am

Ive just had a very length and mostly amusing conversation with a friend of mine about this issue, His job is to maintain the network and security of a very large public division of the government.

He is up to date on all current laws , loopholes, scams, viruses etc and more or less said that if they take me to court over this and win he will pay the fine because (his words not mine) their is more chance of getting a b*** job from the queen than this claim holding any water in a UK court.

He then went on to list many reasons why ,such as natted dynamic ips can be logged incorrectly or faked easily, an ip is just an ip and not a real link to a person , wireless and wired networks can be hacked a lot easier than most people think( he has offered to demonstrate this in court should it go that far), and that without physical evidence that the file was on your computer downloaded by you and on your hard drive then what proof do they have.

I know its all very well him stating these facts when its not him thats received the letter but I do trust his level of competence in this field so It has eased my mind.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby enigmax » Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:35 am

PDX wrote:I keep wondering did a game such as Colin Mcrae Dirt not sell so well or is it due to the death of the great rally driver that they see profits dropping in the future?

Codemasters and Davenport have been doing business in other areas for quite some time.

ritch1 wrote:[edited].....and asking for proof that they downloaded a 6GB file from her connection 4 times.

When Logistep were questioned on this before (the issue of 'did you download the entire thing from this connection') they simply lied and said they did. It's the nature of BitTorrent, bits fly round from peer to peer, it's staggering to suggest that they downloaded the whole thing from any one person. They didn't and they would be lying (again) if they said they did
(@ritch1: Your situation is quite interesting and you could be quite important to this case. You should email me at enigmax[at]torrentfreak.com)

IMO this is a mexican stand off and they're praying that you don't have the nerve to hold out until the end where you even get the chance to dispute Logistep's 'evidence'.

Although there has been no comprehensive legal review of Logistep’s actions in the UK, if they continue along the same road, it’s just a matter of time. According to a user on Slyck Forums, the Government-run and highly respected UK Trading Standards has declared claims against UK citizens as “very shakey” as lawyers “offer no evidence that the game was ever on your hard drive” and they accept that “there is no proof that you, or your computer were involved in offering the game for download.” Without such critical evidence, it’s staggering that lawyers have the nerve to even accuse people and clearly, a Court case is the very last thing they want - that’s why they rely on the bullying tactics.

http://torrentfreak.com/anti-piracy-out ... e-support/
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby ritch1 » Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:02 pm

regarding the above point.

That is what I was thinking earlier, my knowledge on the net is average but I know enough to realise that there are numerous ways that you could deny this offence even if you did it, thats why piracy is such a problem, i mean if it could be policed they would have solid laws in place by now and everyone would know about them and not even think about illegal downloading. Is there a law in place where a company can suddenly spring a £2000 fine on a person when they are unaware they are responsible if a hacker was to use their IP address?

I am just going to deny it and say the ip address was compromised in some way and leave it at that. As Tom Cruise said in A Few Good Men, what they gonna do use the lier lier pants on fire defense?
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby ntscuser » Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:40 pm

ritch1 wrote:they say that have have undeniable proof in the from of IP addresses, date and times, port numbers, packet details and files size. That is why I going to being very cautious about my reply to deny these allegations, if denied surely they will just say they have all these details?
Any of that information could have been culled from a standard file-sharing client, it does not prove they received personal details from your ISP of any kind. However, if you reply to their letter in any shape or form you are confirming details they couldn't otherwise have proven. Say nothing.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby fraggerads » Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:00 pm

Hi there.

Iv also received a letter saying the same but for £511

What I have done is rang my isp which is Bt and asked if they have been contacted by any company.
They said no and that they cant give any details out anyway.
We rang them again asking them about I.p adresses and if they can get information about us from it. They said no because most routers in the same area will all have the same I.p address. This only happens on fixed I.p adresses and not dynamic I.p addreses. Bt then decided to take the dilemna it to a higher level and that they will contact us in 72 hours.

We have know sent a letter asking for any evidence the company has on us downloading or uploading any of the files which was on a bittorrent directly linking me to the colin mcrea torrent.

Details later on what happens..
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby fraggerads » Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:16 pm

oooo also has any one noticed that there is NO signatures on any documents that has been from codemasters or the letters sent to your ISP provider.... well no signatures from the isp itself
And something else i noticed is the letter sent to my ISP provider was dated 1 month before they said they monitored me having a hit on a bit torrent. No isnt that strange.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby ritch1 » Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:46 pm

thanks for the info fraggerads

keep us updated
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby dream pinball 3d lol » Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:50 pm

hi folks,
just a few tips that may help,alot of u by now are full of worry upset gut,s and stuff,but here,s wat happened to my friend last year for that pinball game,the first letter was titled mr,she,s a miss,the address wernt quite right either just enough to get it to the door,she replied with registered post and her correct name and address ,and she admitted to having there pinball game,after several letters back and for,with there final letter stating no matter who had the game or who,s pc it was on she was guilty because she rent,s the line,

she aint heard from them now for allmost 12 month,s,she threw the last letter in the bin,my advice is dont pay if you do reply get someone else to write it,that way you can deny all knolledge of them as there letter,s aint registered,but at least you can get there reply,it,s a big scam ,come on how many people are d/loading it,s a money making scam period,

hope this help,s a little
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Dazzle_2 » Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:15 pm

So far I have seen at least two posters make the assertion that the account holder is responsible for all traffic crossing through the line, this is not a current state of the law and purely misleading

In the civil courts its a basic requirement that they place a name in their paperwork as its likely a claim against persons unknown will be laughed out of court, you can place any name in the paperwork and ask for permission to change the name at a late date should you have reasonable grounds to find you have issued a summons/writ against the wrong person.

Now understanding the bit above is vital as when someone places your name on a writ they are accusing you directly, in such a case its merely your job to prove ( yes the burden is on you if they instigated the case) that you are not the person who breached their "copyright", you can help your case by asking them for detailed proof of their claims and by providing detailed refutations that can include the fact that it was impossible to download as they claim using such and such a type of line, or that you where away on holiday, or that you have a wireless router and heres a clipping of a published hack, this is what level of evidence you need to provide to stay on the right side of "reasonble weight of evidence", merely paying for an internet connection does not under law make you responsible for all activity commited by those using it to break a criminal or civil law, those activties are no doubt done without your knowledge or permission ( if you are in fact innocent) by the mere fact they are law breaking and therefore outside the scope of your personal responsibilities and duties of care under law.
The logic is simply none of us can give anyone else permission to break the law and therefore such activity falls outside of our control.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby bunnox223 » Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:41 pm

hi guys i to have recieved 5 letters for this colin mcrae game, they want £511 off me and to sign that i did it and wont do it again (yeah right) i have been in touch with watchdog i am waiting to hear a reply, also got a guy from the register ringing on monday for a discussion on it, there are pages stating about evidence of my ip address and it being
captured in switzerland, my ip address changes when i turn on and off
my router and the one in ipconfig is not the one they are stating
neither,it states that we are unable to provide you with a copy of our
clients application to the court or the documents relied upon in
support of that application however were able to provide you with a
copy of the order for discloser made by the court ordering you isp to
release details of your name address and telephone number..... but i
look through what they sent me and there is no proof that my isp gave
them my details? plus at the time specified on the sheet of
downloading the file it states 9am i was in work at that time!
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Postby MrFredPFL » Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:15 pm

i am not a lawyer. what i am about to say is not legal advice.

this has all the appearances of a scam.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby phoe » Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:40 pm

A small query on timescales if anyone can provide details (I haven't had a letter, haven't downloaded the game, don't own an ex-pox and wouldn't want to !)

What dates are they saying the alleged file was distributed, and what is the date on their letters ? (i'm curious how quick their turn-around is for demanding money with menaces)
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby enigmax » Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:08 am

spagyi wrote:I have sent letters to my ISP, an DL, but they didn't get back to me yet.
Was anyone lucky to get answers?

Be very aware that when you speak to Davenport you will be confirming details to them. You will be confirming you received the letters, you will be confirming who uses the machine etc etc. Don't tell them anything they don't already know and don't be bullied by their arbitrary deadlines.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Ratt » Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:39 am

If I understand it correctly, the people receiving letters are exclusively people who use fixed IP adresses? That's a minor but interesting aspect in its own right.
"Remember, kids, only rich people can sidestep the law. When you download our music without permission, you undermine the very fabric of society, but when we move our money to offshore tax shelters, that's simply 'fiscal responsibility'."
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby bunnox223 » Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:43 am

not mine mine changes i recieved 5 letters all with different ip address on them for the same download
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