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Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

For discussion of the threatened legal action surrounding the alleged filesharing of pornography, computer games and music. (Golden Eye Int LTD / GEIL / MIRCOM / TCYK)
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Summary site (BeingThreatened.com) and Chat (IRC) or Chat (WebClient)

Speculative invoicing and “pay up or else” schemes for copyright infringement - Citizen's Advice Bureau

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I've received a letter, what should I do? and Davenport Lyons - What can we do as a group?

Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby sharp910sh » Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:58 pm

If you aren't innocent how will they differentiate between the people who are and aren't innocent. In their eyes everyone is guilty. I think I may pay, I may call them up tomorrow and see how I can pay. But if I did indeed upload the game I don't even have the game. 500 quid is expensive for something you didn't even upload/download. So I would be paying for nothing.

The problem I'm facing is if I say I am innocent how do I know they may not just sent me to court. It may be a bluff, they act as if they will only send people to court who contest, but really it could be a trick. And they will just send every one to court.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Paladwyn » Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:25 pm

We can't tell you what to do, I would merely advise against it.

How do they tell the difference? That is what this is all about, isn't it? If you pay - you are assuming guilt. If they take you to court over it, which is still highly unlikely..and you actually go, you have a fair shake to defend yourself. Each case should be treated differently.

All we need is one case to go in your favor, and their entire strategy will be tossed out the window. I know it's easy for one who isn't in the situation to say "don't pay" but if you are truely innocent I don't see why you should have to.

All you need to realyl say is you have an open wireless connection (if you do) and that you aren't responsible for the activities on it, should somebody use it.
Don't roll your chair backwards, you might run over my foot.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby sharp910sh » Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:40 pm

If I did download the filme then fair enough, but I couldn't have downloaded the file as I wasn't even at home. So I would just paying due to fear which is what they want!
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Alisha » Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:56 pm

Kinda,, They will state you were using Azereus or what ever, so you dont need to be there to P2P ,, you just leave your PC on...
Rember probabilty is all that counts...
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby sharp910sh » Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:58 pm

Alisha wrote:Kinda,, They will state you were using Azereus or what ever, so you dont need to be there to P2P ,, you just leave your PC on...
Rember probabilty is all that counts...


I agree, thats where my defence would fall. The problem is there is no real way to 100% prove you didn't download it.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Paladwyn » Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:04 pm

sharp910sh wrote:
Alisha wrote:Kinda,, They will state you were using Azereus or what ever, so you dont need to be there to P2P ,, you just leave your PC on...
Rember probabilty is all that counts...


I agree, thats where my defence would fall. The problem is there is no real way to 100% prove you didn't download it.


You don't need 100%, you only need to convince the judge that you didn't... 51% is all it takes.
Don't roll your chair backwards, you might run over my foot.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby MrFredPFL » Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:08 pm

sharp910sh wrote:
Alisha wrote:Kinda,, They will state you were using Azereus or what ever, so you dont need to be there to P2P ,, you just leave your PC on...
Rember probabilty is all that counts...


I agree, thats where my defence would fall. The problem is there is no real way to 100% prove you didn't download it.


i am sure the folks at DL love this thinking. are you saying that they can simply accuse anyone with an internet account, since they COULD have done it? i would hope the legal system there is not operating at that level.

as for proving a negative - perhaps you could ask their counsel to prove he never commited an obscene act in public. after all, he COULD have... or wait a minute - maybe you could ask them to prove they didn't download a few copyrighted works themselves ;)

do people in england no longer have any presumption of innocence, in the absence of compelling evidence otherwise? if so, i truly feel for you.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Kerensky » Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:22 pm

So what I'm wondering is - what happens to people that just pay to make them go away?

Is there any guarantee that it will make them go away? Is admission of guilt with the payment enough for them to go back to the corps they're representing and have someone else bring the very same suit? I mean, if you just pay them then the court system knows nothing about it.

And do you then just get put on a list of people who roll over and get hit up again and again?

This whole thing is somewhat worrying, esp. as it sounds like a lot of folks are getting them that didn't download what they're accused of and yet are being told they stand little chance in court. Though of course it's not clear if their evidence has ever been presented either.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby PorkyPig » Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:38 pm

I am one of the original 500 on DL's list of dream pinball downloaders/uploaders, a game i had never heard of until the letter they sent me basically demanding money with menaces.

Since then, I've found out that logistep is a company closely related with topware, logistep is a discredited data IP hoovering up piece of shit, already discredited in their base in Swizterland, (and now other EU contries, I don't expect the UK to be among them) although that was just a scam, all the major players are based in germany, pretty much sharing the same premises, an ex con dirk hassinger thought up this scam while in prison for tax evasion, further google searches aren't very flattering on this individual.

The present reaction by scared internet users really upsets me, this is why these people can dominate you, pretty soon everyone will be frightened of an interesting mouse click.

Anyway, I've had all the threatening letters, I've answered some of them but the last I refused to enter into any further correspondence with them, I will respond to the court summons and attend court on that day, if after that i'm destroyed financially DL will find I already did that!

And in the words of someone else..

"Freedom is another word for nothing left to lose"

Kris Kristofferson
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby unhappy » Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:56 pm

I know no-one can predict what a court outcome may be, however on the other hand you can't just accuse someone of something and expect to be able to sue them in court with no evidence otherwise everyone would be at it.

Therefore if this does go to court (and is defended) DL's evidence would have to be put under scrutiny by experts to the satisfaction of the court. Although I would have to question whether a court would still allow the evidence unsubstantiated even for a default judgement otherwise, again, what's to stop anyone from doing this ?
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby stupidman » Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:02 pm

hi guys, i know i have been silent for a while, watching closely.

now i must admit, it was a little shocking to see this appear in the news, especially how some of them reported it.

after thinking on it a while, it seems to me, that DL have opened the door for the innocent people like myself, to contact said journalists with our story.

As an innocent, i feel that we should in mass send emails to c4, bbc et al, to explain what exactly is going on, it would also help if enigmax would add to this, with a history of logistep, euro developments, etc etc.

I am not sure if we should group together, and send a mass email, or individual ones, but we NEED to tell our side, the more info is sent, the more we will hurt DL, because, if the reporters know the facts, then they will surely report it, then once the truth is in the media, they will dig deeper

PS

if the lady with the 16k fine is polish, it is highly likely that she may have gone home, to escape.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby unhappy » Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:03 pm

In fact if anyone defending loses in court, I suggest we get together and write our own IP snooper (as Logistep have), get it certified by some ficticious independant IT firm, acquire DL's IP address and go through the exact same process they have done to us and sue them in court. After all, a precident would have been set by then. The beauty of the scheme is we won't even have to prove they did the file-sharing. Any money we make can help others who get sued by DL - we just pay them back their own money. It's fool-proof !
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Meek » Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:43 am

Good idea unhappy ;) though I'm not much of a coder.

I think it is a good idea for us all to join up and do something about this. It's all well and good helping each other by talking about the situation on this forum (which has been excellent btw), but we need to do something to counteract DL's actions.

Let's take the fight to them! Individually DL may have the advantage, but we can take that away from them if we join up and do something. Emailing C4, BBC and possibly even Trading Standards and the Information Commission maybe?

Not sure if it'll be helpfull for anyone, but I found the legal services commission which seems to offer free legal advice http://www.legalservices.gov.uk/.

So......who's up for creating a rebellion against DL? :twisted:
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby hipraptor » Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:09 am

I am all for taking the fight to DL as they have from day one been able to get the own way in so much as they even have people's details even though the person has not done as they alledge, further they have also gotten away to date with harressment which for some equates to mental torture leading to physical and mental health problems.

Maybe we need to get togther and also after sorting ourselves out, having a press conference, hopefully with some legal expert to advise us so that we can let the media know what is really going on, instead of just the world according to DL.

This will also give us a chance to sort out what legal options we have, i.e legal aid etc.

Of course one of the things we will need, will be a way to prevent any moles infiltrating our meeting, if we get to this point.

Also it might be worth tipping off the press that we are going to organise ourselves against DL.

I would very much like to give the register the first heads up on this also as they seem to be the only media who have followed our story from day one and have not reported in favour od DL, unlike the BBC etc.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Meek » Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:19 am

Right.....who's a good leader? I will defiantely join in and help, but I'm not very organised. I found the legal aid website so that could be a good first port of call once we get our group arranged. Will we need a name? PADL (People Against Davenport Lyons?) :D

The mole issue is a good one, as there are rumours that Dl have been watching this forum. We'll need some sort of membership acceptance.....maybe a pic of people with their letters lol. I'll have a think about it.

Anyone else interested in joining PADL? :)
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Billy Smart » Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:29 am

You will find that going underground will deprive others of finding information on this matter which would be a shame because i'm sure it is forums like this that have saved many people from being harassed by these toe rags.

but the forming of a group is a good idea it might help in the search for a free up and coming technically savvy lawyer who could make a name and a career for themselves defending people wrongly accused by these scum.

getting away from the specfics of the case this whole issue is morally wrong DL have evidence ( their claims ) of massive copyright infringement but are allowed to pick and choose who they take to court,for there own financial gain...

All i can hope is that the words of encouragement for people to fight against wrongful accusations help in focusing peoples minds to fight rather than give in.Many people died to give us all the right to fair trials and innocent until proven guilty DL are taking away them rights....their methods have been stopped in 4 countries lets make the UK a 5th.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Meek » Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:44 am

Hey Billy,

I wouldn't think the group would plan on goin underground because other people need this information as well.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby dedd » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:19 am

Just like to say, I am in, in fact I already tried to contact a few people and make a forum, but it was not too successful.
I almost thought about paying when I saw everything on the news (it's horrific scare tactics) but after thought, and reading this, I am more angry and what DL are attempting now.

PADL is a beautiful name... because DL will be up shit creek without a PADL...
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby bubbster » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:31 am

If you are going to do this, I suggest you get a website frontpage up & running to act as a focal point and attach some forums to it;

www.padl-uk.org is available, but most forms of www.padl have been taken already
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby MajorMellons » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:45 am

I'll help, as much as I can, and in whatever capacity is required.
Altho' not particualy proficent anything, which I guess is not much use!, but count me in. :D
* "Davenport Lyons" and/or "Davenport-Lyons" and/or "Davenporn Lyons"
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby SteveyG » Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:17 am

I'm in for this one lads! Take the fight to DL!!

We need:
a) A Head guy who has enough spare time, determination and knowledge to keep PADL in check and organised
b) A forum where PADL members can correspond with each other privately or at least unwatched (a website perhaps?)
c) Competant writers who will be PADL's media face (writing to newspapers/websites etc)
d) A proof-reader (a competant person who can read through our letters to DL and advise on errors. Basically a letter editor)
e) Someone with legal knowledge who can give free advice and updates
f) A means of communicating with other members (msn or the like perhaps, we can start some "group chats" there)
g0 Anything else?

:headbang: IT'S ON LIKE DONKEY KONG! :headbang:
* "Davenport Lyons" and/or "Davenport-Lyons" and/or "Davenporn Lyons"
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby Fenrix » Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:51 am

I am more than happy to help out where I can, but i think the main stumbling block to all this is , we NEED a legal guy on our side/team. Without definitive legal help, were not going to add much....
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby hipraptor » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:33 am

Meek wrote:Hey Billy,

I wouldn't think the group would plan on goin underground because other people need this information as well.


Going underground is not what I am suggesting, rather we do not want DL infiltrating if we decide to get organised, what I am suggesting is that like DL we start to use the media to fight back and hopefully get someone to help us go on the offensive, the group of course needs to include even people who have as yet not been targetted by DL as this would give more scope for drawing in knowledge, all one needs to keep DL out is some kind of legal form that in effect says one is not working on behalf of DL or any of its clients/assocaites.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby hipraptor » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:34 am

Fenrix wrote:I am more than happy to help out where I can, but i think the main stumbling block to all this is , we NEED a legal guy on our side/team. Without definitive legal help, were not going to add much....


Yep without someone who is savvy legal wise, we may land up making mistakes that will have DL ROFLing it.
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Re: Just got a letter from Davenport Lyons RE-Colin Mcrae Dir

Postby bubbster » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:55 am

If you get enough people involved, just get everyone to donate £10 or so and get yourself some representation like they did in Germany.
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