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legal action for downloading Dream Pinball (Davenport-Lyons)

For discussion of the threatened legal action surrounding the alleged filesharing of pornography, computer games and music. (Golden Eye Int LTD / GEIL / MIRCOM / TCYK)
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I've received a letter, what should I do? and Davenport Lyons - What can we do as a group?

Postby GraphiX » Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:47 pm

thanks Lurkin excelent find

but if they are claiming their client is Topware
then isn't the whole thing void as they are giving or miss representing vital infomation to the case.

if they are lying about their client which clearly isn't topware then whats saying they are not lying and making up false evidence on the peoples cases?

this just gets weirder and weirder.
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Postby monkeynoises » Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:51 pm

"TopWare Interactive is based in Las Vegas, Nevada. The company publishes interactive consumer software products in North America and is establishing a vast portfolio from budget to console. TopWare is set to launch over 13 titles for the 2005 holiday season and has plans to launch over 50 titles in 2006."

Presumably, they are the publisher (not necessarily the producer) and distributor of the game in the USA...while in Europe the producer sells the game?

On the letter you should have a Reference...it says something like TOP.X.Y....where X and Y are numbers.

My reference was NCIP/X.1/Virgin Media Formerly known as NTL - the X was between 1 and 9, single digit.

If there are people out there with an X number greater than 10, then please post a message here saying so.

Otherwise if everyone has single digit X numbers, then that would seem odd indeed.

On the Bank Transfer page it uses the TOP reference number for the payment reference.

Whatever you do, you must reply within 14 days, otherwise they can get summary judgement, and you are screwed then - you are assumed to be guilty.
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Postby GraphiX » Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:13 pm

you know how easy it is to actually lie and fabricate screenshots and evidence on something like this?

a child of 4 could use paintshop and edit in a users ip address and were talking something quick.
imagine the lenths and different screenshots, printouts that these professional distributor companys can do.

no UK judge would even for 1 second believe its all lies because they work on morals and "the law"
it makes me laugh just how much they think just because it's the LAW people wont do it...

help me judge that guy just stole my car
look he is driving away with it right now!!!

"dont be silly sir he cannot do that as he would be breaking the law
so because it's illegal he wouldn't do it"

well he is and now he is 3 blocks away...

but mr judge says your wrong because it's against the law to do it.
same thing applies here.

if you actually stated it was fake and made up the judge would turn around and say the following.
Sorry but that cannot be true as if it was they would be in serious contempt of court as it's illegal
to commit fraud or purger yourself on the stand.

yes it's against the law to fake evidence but how does that pysically stop someone doing it?
just because some paper somewhere that no-one is taking any notice of gets signed? pfft.

But because they are "a company" "a firm"
the judge wouldn't even think twice about them tampering or making fake evidence because most its illegal.

in otherwords it could all be fake they can and will use fake details and get away with it all
because the judge thinks no company would do this because of "Morals" and because they should obey the law.

murders shouldn't kill but they do, theifs shouldn't steal but they do why do they think these idiots would be any different.
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Postby Nutty-Slack » Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:46 pm

monkeynoises wrote:Whatever you do, you must reply within 14 days, otherwise they can get summary judgement, and you are screwed then - you are assumed to be guilty.

That's almost certainly the case.
Chances are that it's just a straight-forward county court claim.
In this instance it sounds like you've got an 'initial letter' to give you the chance to cough up and keep things nice and simple for everyone.
Next will be further letters, costs piled on at each stage and then finally a court summons (from the court itself I believe).

You have to assume that NTL/Virgin have surrendered your details.
That means in essence that it's already been established that Topware(?) do have sufficient legal grounds to prosecute you (otherwise they would have had no credibility to obtain your personal information).

You really only have two choices as I see it.
Get yourself some decent legal representation (immediately) and go for the court date, or just pay them off now.

Quibus Societas Nobis Intemporaliter
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Postby piXelatedEmpire » Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:52 pm

wow.. just wow.. this thread is filled with twists and turns.. I can't wait for the movie!

To all those whom are facing this "legal action", please keep us posted on how this all pans out - it is amazingly interesting.
Ross Wheeler, CEO of Albury.net.au, referring to the Australian Governments internet filtering plan wrote:"It's the most ill-conceived pile of stupidity by the biggest bunch of cretins that I've ever seen in my life"
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Postby who_me » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:05 am

bottomline.. is it legal for ur ISp to be giving ur info out without court orders or informing you?
ADVERTISING SPACE
FOR SALE.
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Postby IceCube » Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:12 am

That depends on what country you reside in (if this is referring to a specific country, don't mind me then. I'm still catching up on the Slyck events myself)
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Postby Dynasty » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:44 am

who_me wrote:bottomline.. is it legal for ur ISp to be giving ur info out without court orders or informing you?


its against the contract you sign for your ISP if they give any kind of personal details then there breaching the contract.. when i phones virgin yesterday then said under no surcumstances would we ever give out your details and also if we had to we would do it first with your clarification.
Last edited by Dynasty on Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby hipraptor » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:45 am

Well I know my ISP knew nothing about it when I rang customer service, howvere the guy I spoke to said, thye do not know what goes on in there legal department without making enquires and so he did this for me and I got back in touch wiht him and he told me that intially Devnport tried getting my info off my ISP and they refused and so Davenport came back with a court order.

So it might be worht for those at Virgin to enquire with Virgin internets legal department and not just taking what the person you spoke to as gospal.
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Postby hipraptor » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:48 am

enigmax wrote:Right gentlemen.

There are 19 pages of posts here with people having the same problem. Please read and report back ;)

http://www.legalbanter.co.uk/uk-legal-legal-issues-uk/35693-letter-claim-p2p.html


Legalbanter is not the origin of these posts, go to the newsgroup uk.legal not legalbanter.

I was the one by the way who started the thread in UK,legal.
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Postby hipraptor » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:49 am

JonBoy07 wrote:Does anybody use another ISP apart from Virgin and have had confirmation of no requests for personal information?


Yes me, as I pointed out in my first post in UK.legal I am with Karoo that is run by Kingston comms in Hull.
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Postby hipraptor » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:53 am

LurkinHawk wrote:Actually, the story gets better and better.

Topware doesn't produce or sell the game.

If you check out Topware's site, you'll find they only Review/Preview the game with a minimal bit of information (system requirements/data sheet/features). They show it as a 'Project'.

Developers are ASK Homework, located in Hungary.

To find the game price, you have to follow a link which takes you to a pretty, albeit noisy, flash homepage for dream pinball. Poking around a bit you finally get to download or order.

Clicking 'Order' takes you to the online store, which is, interestingly enough, based in Europe (Karlsruhe, Germany) ... ZuXXez Entertainment AG, which claims to be the game's 'producer'.

Game price is 24.99 Euro.

Is this why German law is referenced?


So that is why we are being quoted German time zones etc and Davenport keep on using German court laws etc.
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Another Reported Letter.

Postby srarnold » Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:40 am

I too have received one of these letters, also stating a German Time Zone, So I have done some investigation into this, and this is what I have found out so far:

Rang my ISP (BT)- there is no information on my account about anybody asking for information, may need to speak to a different department, so will keep trying.

Spoke with Trading Standards to find out more about this company Davenport Lyons, this is what I found:

The Company at the address on the letter is:
Davenport Lyons Ltd Liability Partnership
Company Number: 0C300136
Registered with Companies House in 2001
They have had Dormant Accounts since June 2005, so why all of a sudden have these letters started.

Take a look at the Companies Investigation Branch web site, if you need to log a complaint against this company you can do so here.
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My thoughts

Postby vorlockfoss » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:29 am

Hi,

Just joined because my friend has just been stung by one of these letters (£350); thought I'd do some research.

Most comments here are interesting. I've several thoughts about all this,

How did they know you downloaded, if you downloaded, their file/program from Emule? The only way I can see this as being possible is if someone at their end, wherever that may be, is sat waiting for someone to download from their PC, using Emule or similar. Once you've accessed their Emule or similar files they then start their IP tracing etc. If this is the case then is it legal? I would see that method as being possible entrapment of some kind. Also, the fact that they are also using Emule or similar and have the capability to upload files, is that legal? Of course they would argue that they have not uploaded any files, but they have, "3D Pinball Wizrd"! If Topware are only the distributers, if that, then do they have the legal right to share this software? Has Ask Homework, the Developers, or ZUXXEZ Entertainment AG, the producers, given them the legal documentation for them to be able to share the file? Do Topware have the American distribution rights, as previously suggested that they may have?

Your thoughts about my comments would be appreciated.

V.
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Postby monkeynoises » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:50 am

Just spent half an hour on the phone to Virgin Media, and they claim they haven't given my details to anyone. However, I have said I want this in writing, and so they are going to get back to me, after they have done some more looking in their Fraud, and Police liason department.
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Postby monkeynoises » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:10 am

Go to the lawsociety org uk website and Davenport Lyons are in there.
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Re: My thoughts

Postby Asuran » Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:56 am

vorlockfoss wrote:Hi,

Just joined because my friend has just been stung by one of these letters (£350); thought I'd do some research.

Most comments here are interesting. I've several thoughts about all this,

How did they know you downloaded, if you downloaded, their file/program from Emule? The only way I can see this as being possible is if someone at their end, wherever that may be, is sat waiting for someone to download from their PC, using Emule or similar. Once you've accessed their Emule or similar files they then start their IP tracing etc.


Are they accusing for downloading or the more common "making copyrighted material publicly available" i.e. sharing?


If this is the case then is it legal? I would see that method as being possible entrapment of some kind. Also, the fact that they are also using Emule or similar and have the capability to upload files, is that legal? Of course they would argue that they have not uploaded any files, but they have, "3D Pinball Wizrd"! If Topware are only the distributers, if that, then do they have the legal right to share this software? Has Ask Homework, the Developers, or ZUXXEZ Entertainment AG, the producers, given them the legal documentation for them to be able to share the file? Do Topware have the American distribution rights, as previously suggested that they may have?

Your thoughts about my comments would be appreciated.

V.


I'm sure the investigating parties have a permission to use the material for such purposes.
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Postby mickyq » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:08 pm

i've been following this thread with interest since i recieved the same letter on friday last week. yesterday i posted a total denial off to davenport lyons.
today i contacted my isp, virgin media and asked if they had indeed divulged my address to davenport lyons and charged £49. i spoke to a very helpful lady who called me back after contacting virgin medias legal department. they have absolutely no record of handing information to davenport lyons and had also never billed them the £49 they claim, in their oppinion this is a very elaborate hoax.
i was given an address to write to at virgin media and they will reply in writing confiming no info was handed to davenport lyons.
the plot thickens, but it looks like it is very possibly a scam, i must admit if it is indeed a scam its the most convincing i have come across !
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Postby GraphiX » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:26 pm

Micky it's the most convincing?

okies in a nutshell 2000 + people all around the uk
have recived a letter from this law firm stating they owe them £350 in damages for a file that no-one knows anything about?

i mean yes its one hell of scam but doesn't it sound
a little fishy lol 2000 + people around the uk have
suddenly Downloaded The Exact Same pinball game?

hell i bet you couldn't of even thought of searching
for "pinball" on limewire/p2p/torrents etc why would you? winXP comes with its own pinball game theres so many freeware versions and open source versions.

and its just a little strange they pick some game from a company no-one has ever delt with or heard of before lol its not like a ubisoft,eagames, game.
it's not a popular most wanted game nope.

it's some game that the world didn't even knew existed. but yet its so popular half the country have downloaded it lol

Whats more scarry is how a shitty stupid low price useless game can actually get you in legal trouble imagine all the software/games/movies/music being shared from top artists, popular game companys, popular applications adobe, microsoft, macromedia etc imagine if they started doing this with their backing and their money eeeek!! this could be the start of the internet mine field.

soon you will be too scared to load up a website
just incase someone has spoophed it and it's logged you into some site that is copytighted lol
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Postby JonBoy07 » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:30 pm

I have just returned from a free advice solicitors. He seemed very interested in this, so much in fact he kept my copy of the letter to do some more investigating.

I will post the any updates.
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Postby Asuran » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:34 pm

I wonder if this kind of copyright scams would become common would that be good or bad when looking at the big picture. The nature of the so called "evidence" is such that it is impossible to differentiate between real and fabricated. So, if these scams would become common, it would become very hard to prove that your copyright case is legimate and hopefully it would lead to a situation where only evidence gathered by proper authority would be accepted in court.

"Logs" are just text, if you know the format you can write legimate logs in notepad if you want to, you can get anything into a "screenshot" etc. In the end these cases are just their word against yours.
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Postby Dynasty » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:53 pm

mickyq wrote:i've been following this thread with interest since i recieved the same letter on friday last week. yesterday i posted a total denial off to davenport lyons.
today i contacted my isp, virgin media and asked if they had indeed divulged my address to davenport lyons and charged £49. i spoke to a very helpful lady who called me back after contacting virgin medias legal department. they have absolutely no record of handing information to davenport lyons and had also never billed them the £49 they claim, in their oppinion this is a very elaborate hoax.
i was given an address to write to at virgin media and they will reply in writing confiming no info was handed to davenport lyons.
the plot thickens, but it looks like it is very possibly a scam, i must admit if it is indeed a scam its the most convincing i have come across !


virgin said the exact same to me apart from they didnt say theres being no details given via the virgin legal department but even if there was such information such as this then surley it would be put on your account??

if it is indeed a scam which i am beginning to think it is then yes its very very convincing...

---

from the letter i got this bit of info saying they had got the information of the file i had downloaded which i hadnt ofc off my modem cause they say "all files that are downloaded are someway txt stored on the modem" even virgin laughed at this and straight away dismissed such crap..

still awaiting my responce from virgin tho ill post there responce once i get one :D

-Andy-
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DAVENPORT LETTER

Postby bazwar31 » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:54 pm

i also received one of these lovely letters on the 22nd
telling to pay 349 pounds so i spoke to virgin media about it they said i needed to write to their head office awaiting reply,in the meantime i had a telephone consultation with a gentleman from a solicitors that deal with copyright infringement based in Manchester the same as davenport Lyons to make it simple,anyway
he told me that davenport are a very large and reputable company based in London which is correct i offered to him could this be a scam he said that it most certainly isn't and that davenport are being very reasonable only asking for so little from me i was told that if i ignore this letter i would cost me thousands upon thousands i would be wiped out as he put it he told me too pay it and put it down to experience
now i don't know if this is a solicitor helping another firm out namely davenport Lyons but what he said was very worrying i just wonder if by some mistake you didn't receive the letter it hasn't been signed for so at a loss at the mo
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Postby GraphiX » Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:07 pm

so everyone is getting these letters for downloading the exact same game lol

wow you guys must really like pinball lmao
seriously the odds of that happening is...

like 200 + people all winning the lottery with
the exact same numbers in the exact same order lol

349 quid per person and these are damages.
but if all the people are getting a letter for 349
this means that cost is not damages otherwise there
would be different price differences.

okies here is the 2 possible outcomes.

1. This is a legit company and this is the begining of the end of filesharing because every software company will soon jump on the bandwagon if they find a company making a game no-one even heard of before can sue and get everyone in the uk in trouble and get them paying up imagine what would happen when the major software company's and major game companys can do or demand with their reputation

the cost wouldn't be 350 quid, it would be in the thausands and thausands.

---

2. this is a scam and just give us all a ray of hope
this case could be used in any other case as you state you didn't believe any letters sent because its been done in the past and that turned out to be a scam so to be on the safe side i didn't fall for it.

which also if they are willing to scam people
they are certainly willing to fabricate evidence
anyone can make a screenshot or add a ip in log file.

so there wont be a single way a court can prove it.
unless there is PYSICAL proof and i mean hard cold proof not something someone can fabricate with photoshop
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Postby WarezNewz » Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:07 pm

bazwar31 wrote:i also received one of these lovely letters on the 22nd
telling to pay 349 pounds so i spoke to virgin media about it they said i needed to write to their head office awaiting reply,in the meantime i had a telephone consultation with a gentleman from a solicitors that deal with copyright infringement based in Manchester the same as davenport Lyons to make it simple,anyway
he told me that davenport are a very large and reputable company based in London which is correct i offered to him could this be a scam he said that it most certainly isn't and that davenport are being very reasonable only asking for so little from me i was told that if i ignore this letter i would cost me thousands upon thousands i would be wiped out as he put it he told me too pay it and put it down to experience
now i don't know if this is a solicitor helping another firm out namely davenport Lyons but what he said was very worrying i just wonder if by some mistake you didn't receive the letter it hasn't been signed for so at a loss at the mo


it is also possible for me to type in a breathless way without any punctuation in order to try to convince people on this forum that i dont really know what i am talking about as an ordinary guy just down on his luck resigned to a defeat and in a way that shows i am not from an organization linked to this legal action and also not the same person who typed in this manner under a different nick earlier in this thread.

But I won't. Its lame
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