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legal action for downloading Dream Pinball (Davenport-Lyons)

For discussion of the threatened legal action surrounding the alleged filesharing of pornography, computer games and music. (Golden Eye Int LTD / GEIL / MIRCOM / TCYK)
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Welcome to this forum, should you have received a letter do not panic, read the threads and make a (hopefully more informed) decision on how you want to proceed.

To avoid repeating previous posts, please familiarise yourself with the following information before posting.

Summary site (BeingThreatened.com) and Chat (IRC) or Chat (WebClient)

Speculative invoicing and “pay up or else” schemes for copyright infringement - Citizen's Advice Bureau

Speculative Invoicing Handbook

I've received a letter, what should I do? and Davenport Lyons - What can we do as a group?

Me also

Postby hipraptor » Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:25 am

My wife also got a letter from them last week, asking for a payment of £325, the extra £25 for costs of a court order as my ISP would not realese my details without a payment of £25.

My wife wrote the following letter to them the next day which reads as follows:

"I got a letter from you today asking for me to sign some kind of legal statement and make a payment of £325.00 for what seems to be a game that I have supposed to have downloaded from the internet.

I myself do not use the internet for downloading games, in fact all I do on the internet is competions and would have no idea how to download anything.

Other people in my house do use the internet including my nine year old child , as well as people who look after my house when I am away, therefore I have no idea who is responsible for this, if what you say is correct.

I have had a look at my sons playstation games and cannot find this game, therefore I am unable to dispose of the game as we do not seem to have it.

I find this letter very distressing that you seem to be accusing me of breaking the law and being disabled, with many health problems I have very little money and cannot possibly pay such a large sum of money.

Therefore all I can do is make sure that when we are not at home that I ensure that nobody can use our internet and I will ask a friend who knows about computers to ensure that nobody is able to download things off the internet.

Therefore I ask that you ask you clients if they can take in account what I have said in this letter and that your client may consider under the circumstances not to take this further."

I just hope we have no made any blobs in this letter to them, also since then I have been in touch with my ISP to see if they did indeed submit a court order to Karoo, Karoo confirmed this along with the cost of this.

I have been trying to find out how someone could download without out our knowledge and someone asked if we had a wireless network.

Through this question, I have since found out that we have been running a unsecured wireless network since last September and acocrding to other people including the bloke I talked to at Karoo, more then likely someone has used my unsecured wireless network.

I have now through advice from others, now been able to secure the wireless network, just as a side note, the bloke who works for Karoo where in the city centre the other day, trying to get there laptop to connect to there secured network and he told me, they found at least 3 wireless netowrks in the city centre that where unsecured and he said, this can mean that people can use other peoples networks for illegal activity.

The problem is of course that if this does go to court, the fact I had an unsecured network, will not mean I we will win the case and what I am wondering is what compelling evidence that this legal firm says it has, as it did manage to get a court order to make my ISP give up my details and I am just wondering is an IP address and a tiem and date enough for some court to issue a court order?

At the end of the day of course if they do take my wife to court, I hope they take into fact that due to my wifes health problems we are so bad off money wise, that we now have debt problems and this is so bad that all our debtors get is a token payment of a quid a month, I presume if we do land up losing this case, the clients of this legal firm who have started this action namley the owners of dream pinball 3d will just land up with a token payment like the rest of them.

As we do not own our own property and have very little income, no savings and the only thing of value is our car, which is needed because my wife is disabled.

Just another thing and I pointed this out in our local newsgroup and was referred here, is this about Davenport Lyons, the person at KC said this company had served KC with a lot of court orders and the bloke at KC said apparently this firm is working on a regular basis for US software firms.

So it looks like we have a mercenary law firm here in the UK.
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Postby Winston84 » Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:36 pm

You might find some useful information
about UK data-laws here :
http://www.out-law.com/
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Postby enigmax » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:10 pm

#HipRaptor

My response to a letter like that would be

Dear sirs

I have no idea what you are talking about and I am very upset that you have approached me in a manner which I can only describe as presumptuous and 'extortionate'

Trusting your evidence against me personally is both abundant and forensic in quality, please present it to my solicitor within the reasonable period of 7 days.
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Postby Duncker » Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:10 pm

To anyone feeling compelled to pay these bastards I suggest you deposit your money with a 3rd party instead.
That way you can get the money back if this turns out to be just another illegal money scam.
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Postby hipraptor » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:27 am

Well they have replied to our letter and say we have to id who did the illegal activity and they will ahve to sign the iffy waiver and pay up or we do.

lol, by the way they are offerign to let us pay in installments.
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Postby enigmax » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:47 am

Tell them this

"Thank you for your response. I am disappointed that you sent your original letter to me presuming my personal guilt and demanding money. By implication you are now admitting to having no idea who committed the claimed infringement and having originally accused me, you now want me to provide information about others. I am sorry, I can't pass on information I don't have. All I can be 100% sure about is that it certainly wasn't me.

If you cannot tell me who actually committed this claimed infringement, i'm afraid I can help you no further."

Don't correspond with them any more, keep copies of your letters and do yourself a favour and go see a solicitor if you can. Tell him

1. You didn't do it
2. You don't know who did - sorry.
3. The other solicitor doesn't know who did it either
4. Is it acceptable that they should threaten me with no evidence? Its very upsetting
5. You have no money, so you couldn't pay, even if you wanted to.
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Postby hipraptor » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:11 pm

Just to clarify things a bit more the following was said in todays letter:


The letter says they have "processes and methods employed by there IT experts to produce the evidence which is then submitted to the ISP's, has been the subject of a detailed investigation and report prepared by a qualified information technology consultant and which has been approved and
recognized by the courts in Germany and England as verifying and validating such process and methods. We therefore remain of the view that there has
been no mistake and that at the very least, your iP address has been identified as being responsible for the infringing of the act(s) identified."

They also say "Unless you are able to either (1) identify the person you claim is responsible for the infringment and arrange for that person or their parent (if under eighteen) to send us the signed undetakings together with the payment requested or, alternatively, (2) sign and return to us the undertakings together with the payment requested within the next seven days, we shall have no alternative but to commence proceedings against you without further notice.

They are then saying there client will take £57 per month as payment and that we sign the forms saying we did it and will not do it again.

I am thinking about replying and now explaining to them that I did not know my wireless network was not secure and that is why I think that's someone
unknown to me had used my Internet connection and that I have no way of identifying that person and that as it was not me or nobody in my household
I am not going to sign any papers or make any payment for something I did not do.
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Postby Asuran » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:29 pm

I believe that the "wireless" defense has been successfully used in the states? Someone can probably provide a link.
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Postby hipraptor » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:55 pm

What is interesting about there letter is the only refer to German and UK courts not anything from the US.
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Re: my opinion

Postby Mac » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:08 pm

I haven't got the letter myself. However in my opinion; I would suggest that Davenport's client's IT professionals has been aware of this so called 'crime' since at least September 2006. And with them being so late in bringing it to your attention, it is impossible to bring in the Police for a serious investigation. As a result no-one will be able to get a fair trial, even in a private brought hearing - should it ever come to court. In essence, everyone has under the EU & UK Human Rights act the right to be treated fairly in accordance to the law etc, etc, etc...

The other thing to check: who actually owns your modem? and who assigns the IP address? ;-)

But I do strongly suggest that people who has got this letter by mistake starts calling the press - after all, who would ever want to play Dream Pinball 3D? And then give it away for free?
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Postby Myre » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:27 pm

I got a C&D notice (my second) for a file I never even had.

I was trying to download a file on eMule that had a long queue and after a few hours I shut off the pc. After being away for 2 days, got back and checked the email.

In the mail arrived a threatening letter forwarded by the ISP listing the file name, time, network used and port number. All those things were correct. The email did not mention the percent complete or how much of it they downloaded to confirm it existed.

I then started up emule and it showed the file being at ZERO BYTES COMPLETE.

The lying bastards insisted I had a file that never even touched the computer!
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Postby hipraptor » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:10 am

Can they involve the police as surley it is a civil matter and if they wher going to invlove the Police would they not have had to have done so at the start, rather then be sending out letters asking for money.
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Re: Cops & Robbers

Postby Mac » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:29 am

Theft is a criminal matter. Accusing people wrongly of theft, even if its through the High Court, is also wrong. However, that letter is designed for parents that does not trust their children, and who would find it cheaper and easier to pay off the "fine".
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Postby enigmax » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:22 am

No, they can't involve the police, so you can stop worrying about that.

AFAIK, in the UK the only legal 'victories' against file-sharers have been summary and default judgements such as the recent case where some guy completely ignored the letters and ended up in court and lost, to the tune of around £3500. He didn't deny it (you are) and he ignored the letters (you aren't ignoring them).

Let me give you some stats about the UK: since 2004, only 139 people have been sued for sharing music (I know yours is software but the same rules apply) of which 127 settle out of court, like you are being asked to do. Those settlements averaged around £2500, so your £350 is quite small in comparison.

The other 12 cases ended in civil actions; the British Phonographic Industry won each one with either default or summary judgements.

Essentially, (I am not a lawyer, so keep that in mind), people either ignored what was happening to them and/or admitted everything. They did not take the opportunity to defend themselves (i.e with a defence of "I didn't do it and I don't know who did").

Another very important thing is this: of those 12 lost cases, a significant number thought that because they didn't know that uploading copyright material was illegal, they thought that made them innocent in the eyes of the Court. Wrong. The ignorance defence has been tried and it has failed.

As far as I can see, if the offence WAS committed and they can prove that someone actually did distribute (upload copyright works) from your IP address, then it is up to them to say who that was. You live in that house and YOU don't know, so how can they?

It would then presumably be up to the Court to decide if not only you but also others all around the UK, are responsible for what others do on their internet connection. I believe these are unchartered waters and to be honest, I doubt the people threatening to sue you want to go down this route for the sake of £350.

I mean this in a considered and honest way, if I were in your shoes there is no way I would admit to doing something I didn't do and I would test their resolve on this. Let them take me to court and PROVE I did what they claim. Lets see this 'evidence'
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Re: Pinball

Postby Mac » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:03 am

Hey Enigmax.

Sorry, I wasn't clear - my friend didn't upload the game, and he has never heard of it before the letter arrived. So it would be in his interest if the matter was to be thoroughly investigated.

However, your post has some very good points - thank you for that!
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Postby hipraptor » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:34 am

I got another letter from them today, telling me to ignore yesterdays letter
as they had calculated the payments wrong that they want us to make in
installments to pay the £325.

The rest of the letter was the same as yesterday apart from the adjusted
some and telling us to ignore yesterdays letter.

The total for yesterdays letter where £307.57

Today's is £325.00, all the same if I had written and posted the cheques off
to them based on yesterdays letter.

Just another question, apart from our IP address and the time of the so called infringment, what other so called "compelling evidence" can they have that would enable them one to get the court order so that they where able to get the court to force the IP to give up our details and that could be used in court and be good enough to get a win.
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Postby enigmax » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:09 pm

Ok, Mac, sorry, misunderstanding, my comments were directed at hipraptor :)

Just another question, apart from our IP address and the time of the so called infringment, what other so called "compelling evidence" can they have that would enable them one to get the court order so that they where able to get the court to force the IP to give up our details and that could be used in court and be good enough to get a win.


They claim that they have evidence which proves that your wife uploaded 3d pinball. Your wife is not guilty of copyright infringement because she did not upload 3d pinball. So even to laymen like you or I, its obvious: their 'evidence' is flawed. Either way, your wife is not guilty and she should not have to either a) take the blame and pay a 'fine' or b) become this solicitors private detective to help finger the infringer, simply because they haven't done their job properly.

You should be aware that the level of evidence acceptable in a civil case is much lower than in a criminal case. Again, i'm not a lawyer or anything like it so I don't know the exact details. What I am sure of is that when a case is bought against someone, it really does have to be brought against the correct person. If she really didn't do it, they need to provide evidence about who did. Now please go and see your solicitor
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I've received a letter too.

Postby Mamma » Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:49 am

I've also never heard of this software.

I'm think they've chosen IP addresses and are making accussations at them.

I've had 2 letters so far.

I googled this group and can't believe other people are getting this scam too.
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Postby lifes2short4shit » Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:26 pm

I got one of these letters today. Looks like Richard Branson is makeing 50 quid out of this scam.......as if he aint got enough money lol
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Uk Legal

Postby hipraptor » Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:16 pm

If anybody uses newsgroups, there is a thread I started a thread in there.
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Postby hipraptor » Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:17 pm

lifes2short4shit wrote:I got one of these letters today. Looks like Richard Branson is makeing 50 quid out of this scam.......as if he aint got enough money lol


What has this to do with Richard Branson?
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Postby enigmax » Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:27 pm

Guessing, i'd say he's with Virgin and they charge £50 to cough up your details to your accusers.
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Postby EvilWizardGlick » Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:01 pm

I swear I read something similar about these fishing expeditions on Boing Boing. It may be worth while to skim through their site archives.
At worst you get some interesting stuff to read.
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Postby Cor Blimey » Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:08 am

Hello
For those who think that it is a scam or not legit, try a search, also read this ->

A top law firm has told MCV that any profits made from importing PS3s could prove insignificant compared to the huge legal costs if Sony were to throw the book at unscrupulous importers.
Mitra Pahlabod of Davenport Lyons has warned that without a legal leg to stand on, anyone selling US or Japanese PS3s over here is taking a huge risk in defying the might of Sony.

“As far as importers of PS3s are concerned, they should bear in mind that any profit they may make from importing the consoles into Europe without Sony’s consent this Christmas may well be short lived,” Pahlabod stated. “They run the real risk of defending lengthy and costly trademark infringement proceedings.”

She adds that anyone trying their luck won’t have any excuse as far as the law is concerned – and Sony should keep a close eye on importers. “It is up to the grey importer to prove that consent to resell the goods in Europe has been given by the trademark owner,” she said.

These are big fish, I too got hit with a £349 bill to pay legal costs :cry: I have used emule during the time/date in question and i may well have downloaded Dream pinball 3D, even thought there's no trace of it, it's not on cd/dvd, hard-disk, maybe i thought it weren't much cop and just deleted it.
It's pretty likely i shall contact them to arrange some payment plan as i can't see any alternative, i don't have a great deal of money but i'm sure they'll be some arrangement we could come to.

To all the others that feel there's a grey area, good luck with your cases.
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Postby WarezNewz » Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:50 am

Take a step back and view this thread. ppl saying they are in trouble, asking for advice then obviously ignoring it, the discussion is mostly one way. All brand new members doing the doom and gloom act but none showing proper concern. You Cor Blimey are obviously a doom shill and the others here don't sound that authentic either. Several ppl all in the same thread, all from England fallen victim to the same shit unknown game? wtf?

Let me explain. This is Slyck and this site has the most hardcore p2pers on the net. You aren't scaring anyone.
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