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legal action for downloading Dream Pinball (Davenport-Lyons)

For discussion of the threatened legal action surrounding the alleged filesharing of pornography, computer games and music. (Golden Eye Int LTD / GEIL / MIRCOM / TCYK)
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Summary site (BeingThreatened.com) and Chat (IRC) or Chat (WebClient)

Speculative invoicing and “pay up or else” schemes for copyright infringement - Citizen's Advice Bureau

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I've received a letter, what should I do? and Davenport Lyons - What can we do as a group?

Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby fishslice » Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:23 pm

exactly not official legal letters. It's like a stranger comming to your door, making a claim you've done something wrong, with little tangible evidance and demanding £600.00, completely laughable.

I'm not sure which legal profession they claim to work in, but it sure isn't the same as the rest of the sane world.
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby sharp910sh » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:09 pm

so the people who got the letters last year, whats happened? court?
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby Paladwyn » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:16 pm

sharp910sh wrote:so the people who got the letters last year, whats happened? court?


Nobody was ever taken to court, though DL say they won a case by default...but nobody has seen anything other than DL saying they did, so we all have speculated that they are full of crap.

So, unless there is actual proof that there was ever a case...just believe that nobody has been taken to court, nor has anybody even received a court document or summons, nothing.
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby enigmax » Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:00 am

http://torrentfreak.com/lawyer-who-thre ... hs-080405/

Another setback for Logistep and their lawyer friends
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Re:

Postby Kestrel » Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:50 am

enigmax wrote:Some questions


I'll answer as many as I can.. feel free to pm me if you need more info.

enigmax wrote:1. Has anyone who has received a letter telephoned Davenport Lyons to see what their take is on this?


Yes, I called DL, and was put through to "the official in charge of that case". I spoke to him and explained that nothing in the letter personally identified me. That this particular method of evidence gathering was already outlawed in at least 2 european companies, and that they would have a hard time taking me to court for distributing a razor cracked copy of Two Worlds, when I actually own the two worlds collectors edition boxset. He sounded like he was reading from a script, claiming that he felt they had enough evidence to pursue a legal battle.. and claimed that DL had already won 5 such cases in the UK high court. (None of which I can find any reference to.


enigmax wrote:2. Would anyone here let me see their letter from Davenport Lyons? Obviously you should blank out your own details to retain your privacy.


Certainly, I scanned the letter in to send to BBC watchdog not long ago, pm me and we'll arrange the illegal distribution of said letter... although, is it illegal if I actually include DL's copyright notice?? lol

enigmax wrote:3. Has anyone been accused of using any network other than ed2k (edonkey/emule)? Also, if you happen to know the link you are accused of using, could that information be passed to me please?


Yes, I was using utorrent on various trackers, I've never used edonkey or emule in my life. Unless they happened to be hosting one of said trackers.

enigmax wrote:4. Who are the ISP's involved? Virgin has been mentioned. How many others?


There are a total of 17 ISP's who buckled and passed IP lease information to DL (once again, pm me and I'll happily send you the scans of the court order), based on the way that DL wrote to each ISP, stating their intent, and effectively asking them not to oppose the court order to reveal said information. Virgin appear to be the one company that have responded to the letter opposing the motion, ad as such, were not included in the application for said order. The idea being, that they only applied for the order against ISP's that they knew would not oppose it, thereby meaning that Chief Master Weingarten would simply read the details of the application, see that none of the ISP's in question had opposed it, and would make the order. The simple fact is, any ISP that wrote back saying, "we will oppose this order", would have been dropped from the application. Talk about not even doing the bare minimum for your customers!!

enigmax wrote:If people would rather discuss in private, i'm available on enigmax[at]torrentfreak.com


It would be really nice to get to the bottom of this. thankyou


I received my letter at the end of January, despite the threats of further action, I have yet to hear anything else from them.. Not even the second letter in which they hike the price up to scare you even further.
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Re: Re:

Postby Paladwyn » Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:18 am

Kestrel wrote:
enigmax wrote:1. Has anyone who has received a letter telephoned Davenport Lyons to see what their take is on this?


Yes, I called DL, and was put through to "the official in charge of that case". I spoke to him and explained that nothing in the letter personally identified me. That this particular method of evidence gathering was already outlawed in at least 2 european companies, and that they would have a hard time taking me to court for distributing a razor cracked copy of Two Worlds, when I actually own the two worlds collectors edition boxset. He sounded like he was reading from a script, claiming that he felt they had enough evidence to pursue a legal battle.. and claimed that DL had already won 5 such cases in the UK high court. (None of which I can find any reference to.


So, they have increased the number of their cases they won to 5? But can anybody actually verify this at all? I seriously doubt they have even taken ANY to court at all, considering the deteriorating state of DL and Logistep.

If anybody can acutally find evidence on these so called 'cases' it would be interesting to see the details.
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby CantPayWontPay » Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:18 pm

The link Enigmax posted contains some very good news.
http://torrentfreak.com/lawyer-who-thre ... hs-080405/

It was said earlier in this thread that the "extortion" being carried out by DL seemed to contravene the ethics of the Law Society. As the story above reveals, the French Law Council found that the lawyer using the same methods as DL was guilty of misconduct and has been "struck off" for 6 months.
If anyone gets a new letter from DL and has replied to them, I would advise forwarding the correspondence to the Law Society's Complaints department, and letting DL know you are doing so.

Those of you who haven't replied to DL's threats, continue in silence.

And for god's sake, don't pay.
Can't Pay, Won't Pay
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby loftysmith » Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:38 am

Interestingly the act below is being used against BT in the Phorm advertising saga

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/uk ... 00023_en_2

Blatantly states that it is unlawful to intercept any telecommunication system in the UK without prior warrant. could be a valid point in the DL saga as well

thoughts......??
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby hambut_bulge » Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:37 am

loftysmith wrote:Interestingly the act below is being used against BT in the Phorm advertising saga

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/uk ... 00023_en_2

Blatantly states that it is unlawful to intercept any telecommunication system in the UK without prior warrant. could be a valid point in the DL saga as well

thoughts......??


Yes I've been wondering about that as well. The thing I'm not sure about with RIPA is how it relates to foreign jurisdictions. Take chapter 1, clause 1 for example (bold is mine):

(1) It shall be an offence for a person intentionally and without lawful authority to intercept, at any place in the United Kingdom, any communication in the course of its transmission by means of—
(a) a public postal service; or
(b) a public telecommunication system

Now I read that to mean that the clause only covers intercepts made in this country. Clause 4 in the same chapter does deal with foreign intercepts:

(4) Where the United Kingdom is a party to an international agreement which—
(a) relates to the provision of mutual assistance in connection with, or in the form of, the interception of communications,
(b) requires the issue of a warrant, order or equivalent instrument in cases in which assistance is given, and
(c) is designated for the purposes of this subsection by an order made by the Secretary of State,
it shall be the duty of the Secretary of State to secure that no request for assistance in accordance with the agreement is made on behalf of a person in the United Kingdom to the competent authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom except with lawful authority

Does that mean Loigstep need to have applied for a warrant in order to monitor data from IP addresses in the UK? Bored, don't know if you're reading this thread (I saw your post in the other one), you mentioned that your partner is training to be a solicitor. Could they perhaps offer some advice about RIPA? I've pm'd you just in case you've not seen this one. Thanks.

Anyway, little update on my own situation. I've just got a second letter from DL concerning Two Worlds. They've claimed that the "processes and methods employed" to produce evidence have been the subject of "detailed investigation and report" by a "qualified information technology consultant". They neglect to mention who, but I assume its the Richard Schneider who authored the extract in the original letter. (Funnily enough I can't find out anything about him or his qualifications, other than that he's a director at Logistep.) They also claim that this report has been "approved and recognised by the courts in Germany". They remain of the view that "there has been no mistake" in identifying my IP address.

They then go on to state that it remains their position that it is the owner of an IP internet connection is responsible for its use and security. Again, reference is made to a ruling in the German courts, that a wireless network is the responsibility of its owner and that "any consequences of failing to secure the network fall upon the owner of it". In other words if you got hacked, tough sh*t; and if you have security it must have been you, since proper security protects you from anything! Honestly, I'd be laughing at these muppets if this wasn't so potentially serious.... They also state that in their view "the UK courts would take the same position".

They close by stating that unless I return the sign undertaking form (an edited version was sent as part of my first reply), and payment, within seven days; or if it really wasn't me, I identify the individual responsible and get them to sign the undertaking and stump up the readies, then there will be "no alternative but to take our client's instructions with a view to commencing proceedings against you without further notice." As it stands I couldn't actually return the undertaking form now (even I wanted to) since they've failed to send me a new unedited copy. Interestingly they also haven't increased the amount of damages.

I'm currently considering a more sharply worded reply this time, restating my denial, and (since they're so interested in European legal decisions) start quoting some of the recent developments that enigmax so kindly keeps us abreast of.

Is it worth my demanding to see a copy of the German court documents, or will I just get that photocopy of the default judgement where the defendant didn't turn up.

I want to hold off sending as long as possible (got until the end of the week) and see if I or anyone can make sense of RIPA, as if does apply to our situations then it might be a good idea to start referencing the relevant bits of it.
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby MrFredPFL » Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:54 am

there may be other reasons why what they did was illegal - but joining a BT swarm, for example, is NOT what the law refers to as "intercepting" a communication, i am sure.
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby bored » Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:33 pm

Will have to look into the RIPA, though it's something we haven't had experience with as yet.

I have contacted the court to try and obtain copies of the initial application documents made by DL along with their supporting evidence and a full transcript of the application that was used to get their disclosure order in the current round of "Call of Juarez" threatening letters. They can take up to 20 days to reply (according to the website), so will have to see what they come back with.

Assuming it wont break the bank (i know it will cost me something to obtain) i will get the results scanned and a link posted - unless someone out there has already obtained this information and can post a handy link?. If there is any way to take action to have the disclosed data destroyed, this kind of crap not happen again and ideally a fiscal swipe back at these pillocs, you can believe i am going to take it.
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby Kestrel » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:18 pm

Joining a BT swarm and requesting a packet of an illegal download would probably not count as "interception" of communications under the wireless and telegraphy act in the UK.

It could possibly count as entrapment under US law, but as far as I'm aware, we have no such legislation here in the UK.

What I'm wondering is this. If Davenport Lyons really HAVE won 5 cases in the UK court, then why are they still citing the precedent set by a german court, and stating their view that the UK courts would rule in a similar way. If they already have 5 UK precedents, then why are they not citing those?

And besides, having the backing of the German courts when the Italian and French courts have already ruled their methods illegal is a dodgy premise. Should they be successful in raising a precedent from a German court to full European Law, then by the same token, their methods would have to become illegal under the same European Law thanks to the precedents set in France and Italy.

Simply put, if the UK courts are somehow "forced" to follow the ruling of the german court, then they are also bound to follow the ruling of the other two european member courts. And as any evidence presented in a UK court has to be obtained within the law, any evidence they have would be inadmissable.

I have not yet received my second letter from Davenport Lyons. I would suggest that anyone in the UK who has any of these letters contacts BBC watchdog and reports it. They are currently investigating the matter for potential inclusion in future programming.
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby Mamma » Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:41 am

MORE NEWS;

Anti-P2P lawyer barred
p2pnet news | Freedom:- Elizabeth Martin, a lawyer hired by Swiss anti-piracy outfit Logistep, has been banned by the Paris Bar Council for six months for mailing “hundreds of thousands of threatening letters demanding that alleged file-sharers pay 400 euros (about $630)”.
She’s also barred from the National Council of the Bars (CNB) and other such professional associations for 10 years
“In her letters she warned alleged file-sharers that should it be necessary to take anyone to court, the costs would be substantial,” says TorrentFreak, going on:
“File-sharers were also led to believe that should they be found guilty, they would not only be responsible for their own costs, but those of the other side.”
Her wording is, “very similar to other letters received all across Europe, including those received from UK lawyers Davenport Lyons, who are also working with Logistep in exactly the same manner,” says the story.
“Their version is, ‘In the event that you were not able to pay whatever sums the court may direct, our client would have no option but to take steps to enforce the debt against your property’.”
A Conseil de l’Ordre du Barreau de Paris disciplinary investigation ruled, “By choosing to reproduce aggressive foreign methods, intended to force payments, the interested party also violated [the code] which specifies that the lawyer cannot unfairly represent a situation or seriousness of threat,” says TorrentFreak, adding:
“In addition, the lawyer also violated the code by cashing payments into a private account, not the usual dedicated litigation account, known as a ‘Carpa’. Martin also refused to reveal how many payments had been received from file-sharers.”
One might almost call this extortion, something regularly and routinely used by Warner Music, EMI, Vivendi Universal and Sony BMG’s RIAA against alleged file sharers without a murmur from US legal bodies.
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby MajorMellons » Mon May 05, 2008 8:05 pm

What's the latest here then?

Anybody from way back in March 07 been to court yet?
* "Davenport Lyons" and/or "Davenport-Lyons" and/or "Davenporn Lyons"
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby Pinball Wizard » Wed May 07, 2008 4:18 am

Hi there Mellons :-)

After DL failed to reply to a letter in June '07, I wrote to them in Feb '08 to recap the situation so far and requested their confirmation that they did not intend to pursue the case against us. They replied once, then last week I recieved a letter to the following effect:

We write further to our letter dated Mar '08 and note we have not heard further from you. We have instructions from our client to issue court proceedings and these are being prepared.
The claim will include a claim for damages and we will be asking the court to award a sum in excess of the settlement figure that our client was prepared to accept. We will also be asking the court to make an award of costs against you.
In the meantime, we expressly reserve all our client's rights.

We are not worried about this cursory sabre rattling of theirs, and will be responding within the next week or so.

I have been posting on another thread here at slyck as it is more active. viewtopic.php?f=31&t=39877&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=550
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby MajorMellons » Wed May 07, 2008 9:50 am

Thanks PW, it seems that we are all getting the same letter.
* "Davenport Lyons" and/or "Davenport-Lyons" and/or "Davenporn Lyons"
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby OLDGUY » Wed May 07, 2008 1:35 pm

And another whos got the "thats it were taking you to court now" letter, again I will ignore it a nice point is they have now got my address wrong and the last two went to a house number 20 away from mine its only cause the postie knows me they got delivered to me ,all I can say is come on I love to see you in court!!!!! with all the errors in your letters and so called experts
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby Iceberg » Wed May 07, 2008 3:31 pm

Hi Darren , the 1st and ONLY thing you need to know is that in the U.K it is NOT illegal to use a filesharing site,or to transfer programs over one.
Basically bin the letter..or send to trading standards and the relevant governing body for solicitors in the U.K.
These slime balls are trying a well know scam.
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby Paladwyn » Wed May 07, 2008 4:33 pm

Iceberg wrote:Hi Darren , the 1st and ONLY thing you need to know is that in the U.K it is NOT illegal to use a filesharing site,or to transfer programs over one.
Basically bin the letter..or send to trading standards and the relevant governing body for solicitors in the U.K.
These slime balls are trying a well know scam.


Illegal...no, but infringing copyright...yes, and that is what they are trying to get them on.

Alot of people don't realize the difference. Illegal would mean it's a criminal act, in which it definately isn't.
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby sjb » Wed May 07, 2008 7:25 pm

I wrote a letter denying it and they sent a letter back about a month ago saying the usual your network is your responsibility, quoting german law is acceptable, they were going to proceed with their clients instructions etc.etc etc.

haven't received this letter yet but to be honest it wont bother me. I'll file it and wait for something solid from the court before i start to worry. So far all I've seen from them is hot air. first letter on this forum was march 07 and the alleged infringement from what i remember 6 to 9 months before that. therefore it's been 2 years and all they've done is write letters and threatened. Guess this is just more of the gesturing (bullying) that they are so infamous for. These people are like muppets. It's got to the stage where i find them laughable. I almost hope to get a letter so i can goto court and sue them for damages and in the process get people their money back and get some of the lowlifes up there barred from practicing and show their company up for the bullying, misrepresentation of facts and greed that have hurt a lot of people.

If the facts came out in court it would be embarrassing for them as the letters were full of total crap. my favorite line was "if we take you to court we would win" (their little crystal ball told them that or their imaginary friend) and yet there is no solid fact that anyone did go to court......ever. These jokers are funnier then harry hill.
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby sjb » Fri May 09, 2008 9:43 am

yep ... got my letter today basically like the leter a few posts up.

Totally not worried and the more i get these letters the less I'm worried. (this one had yet another error (to add to my long list) about not responding but i have and i have their response to mine (bunch of muppets).

I'm actually glad this is their final letter as i want to get all this crap over with once and for all and get them kicked in the ball in the process.

They have no hard evidence that I actually did it (which they've also wrote in a letter that most have received). They only have a ip address from what i believe be duplicated, hacked into or just connected to (if security not enabled). There is no law to say i cant have my network open which they claim to think is good enough for them to get a conviction.

I'm usually a pessimist but i see my chances as being 90% to their 10%.

Don't even know why the bothered sending the letter unless it's a duty they have to do, although a earlier letter i had they said there we'nt any pre action protocols that they had to follow.

Wonder how long (if they actually go though with it) we have to wait for the next letter.

I don't actually think they will.
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby unhappy » Fri May 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Yes that is a good point, why bother to send another round of letters out stating they are going ahead with what they had already threatened to do. Does sound like another attempt to squeeze another few more people into submission.
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby jamk » Sat May 10, 2008 4:58 pm

I also received such a letter from DL stating instructions from the client to issue court proceedings. DL claim they are being prepared.

I had a couple of rounds of exchange of letters between them which after a while I got tired of responding.

Lets wait and see...
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby geoffro » Sat May 10, 2008 5:37 pm

Same here, I've had the letter, but I think the fact they've dragged this on so long is suspiciously evasive. I'm in this for the long haul, glad to know I'm not alone.
Good luck guys
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Re: legal action for downloading Dream Pinball 3D

Postby sjb » Sun May 11, 2008 10:07 am

I think this is a con letter. They've always put on their letters "In the meantime, we expressly reserve all our client's rights." to me this is just a get out clause for them. ie. We're preparing the case and were going to take you to court BUT if our client says don't continue we'll stop. How many times have we had letters saying "We're going to take you to court" and nothing has happened (I must be at 4). This letter is exactly the same but phrased slightly differently.
They might as well as put on their letter "We're DEFINETLY going to take you to court!!!!!...MAYBE.".......It's just legal bullshit.
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