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legal action for downloading Dream Pinball (Davenport-Lyons)

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I've received a letter, what should I do? and Davenport Lyons - What can we do as a group?

Postby Dynasty » Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:18 pm

monkeynoises wrote:"TopWare Interactive is based in Las Vegas, Nevada. The company publishes interactive consumer software products in North America and is establishing a vast portfolio from budget to console. TopWare is set to launch over 13 titles for the 2005 holiday season and has plans to launch over 50 titles in 2006."

Presumably, they are the publisher (not necessarily the producer) and distributor of the game in the USA...while in Europe the producer sells the game?

On the letter you should have a Reference...it says something like TOP.X.Y....where X and Y are numbers.

My reference was NCIP/X.1/Virgin Media Formerly known as NTL - the X was between 1 and 9, single digit.

If there are people out there with an X number greater than 10, then please post a message here saying so.

Otherwise if everyone has single digit X numbers, then that would seem odd indeed.

On the Bank Transfer page it uses the TOP reference number for the payment reference.

Whatever you do, you must reply within 14 days, otherwise they can get summary judgement, and you are screwed then - you are assumed to be guilty.


just looked at my ref its showing as numbers 7.1


--edit--

just noticed at the end of the letter it says

Yours Faithfully
DavenportLyons
Davenport Lyons

now correct me if im wrong as im not sure here but letters come with an actual persons name and not the companys??
Last edited by Dynasty on Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby MrFredPFL » Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:23 pm

Dynasty wrote:
who_me wrote:bottomline.. is it legal for ur ISp to be giving ur info out without court orders or informing you?


its against the contract you sign for your ISP if they give any kind of personal details then there breaching the contract.. when i phones virgin yesterday then said under no surcumstances would we ever give out your details and also if we had to we would do it first with your clarification.


with all due respect, dynasty, i don't know how you can make a blanket statement about breaching a contract you've never seen. it may be a breach of YOUR contract - but is it necessarily a breach of everyone's?
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Postby Dynasty » Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:28 pm

MrFredPFL wrote:
Dynasty wrote:
who_me wrote:bottomline.. is it legal for ur ISp to be giving ur info out without court orders or informing you?


its against the contract you sign for your ISP if they give any kind of personal details then there breaching the contract.. when i phones virgin yesterday then said under no surcumstances would we ever give out your details and also if we had to we would do it first with your clarification.


with all due respect, dynasty, i don't know how you can make a blanket statement about breaching a contract you've never seen. it may be a breach of YOUR contract - but is it necessarily a breach of everyone's?


i had to sign some sort of contract for ntl years ago dunno if that was it i cant honestly remember :(
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Postby enigmax » Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:36 pm

Virgin Media Privacy Statement

Disclosing your information

Here's when we may provide information about you:

* To employees and agents of Virgin Media to deal with any accounts, products and services provided to you by Virgin Media now or in the future.
* With your agreement, to Virgin Media group companies and other Virgin companies (e.g. Virgin Atlantic), whose products and services may be of interest to you.
* To search the files of a credit reference agency, which will keep a record of that search, when you apply for service. Additionally, details of how you conduct your account may also be disclosed to the agency. This information may be used by other organisations in assessing applications from you and members of your household.
* We may use aggregate information and statistics for the purposes of monitoring web site usage in order to help us develop the web site and our service and may provide such aggregate information to third parties for example content partners and advertisers. These statistics will not include information that can be used to identify any individual for example, '10,000 people clicked on an advertisement yesterday'.

We will not pass on your personal information to third parties except in accordance with this policy and our Terms and Conditions or where we are required by law to disclose that information.


http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/le ... olicy.html
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Postby GraphiX » Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:41 pm

there is no way these people have gone via virgin/bt/bulldog in any sort of court order

so 1 of 2 things has happened.

1. there is someone in their depo's who's leaking out personal infomation to these legal firms

2. they've been hacked and someone's got their entire db of customers and users or the other virgin companys thats wrapped into virgin media have give out or let slip all users infomation

either way Virgin and all other ISPs need to look into this
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WarezNewz

Postby bazwar31 » Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:51 pm

what????? i love sarcasm when its intelligent
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Postby hipraptor » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:03 pm

I think it inmaterial about such things as data protection laws etc, as Davenport first approched my ISP wihout a court order, My ISP told them where to go.

Next Davenport come back with a court order and my ISP coughs up the information without question as they had been issued with a court order, so in effect because of the court order all other rights of the individual go out of the window, even if it is your ISP's policy not to share any of your perosnal data with 3rd parties regarding such things as address etc.
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Postby denominator » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:09 pm

forgive me if this has been stated already, but has anyone actually contacted davenport lyons by telephone or mail, and confirmed that they are indeed sending out these letters?

exactly how are they demanding payment? do they want you to send the money to a mailing address, is there an online site where you pay, or is there some other method offered?
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Postby Dynasty » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:11 pm

denominator wrote:exactly how are they demanding payment? do they want you to send the money to a mailing address, is there an online site where you pay, or is there some other method offered?


Cheque
Credit Card
Bank Transfer
and debit card
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letter

Postby bazwar31 » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:42 pm

I don't understand such an important letter in there eyes davenport Lyons that it was not sent recorded delivery.what would happen if you never receive the letter i may have this wrong they may not dunno
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Postby GraphiX » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:48 pm

i cannot understand why everyone here isn't on the same level as me with this 1 point of thought.

everyone has been done for this Pinball game?
everyone who's done 22 + pages on legalbanter have
also all been done for this pinball game.

no-one actually has downloaded this game from what i understand doesnt all this just sound like a standard letter sent out on a mass mail scheme?

i mean come on pinball? wtf
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Postby denominator » Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:01 pm

Dynasty wrote:Cheque
Credit Card
Bank Transfer
and debit card


where exactly do they want this payment sent to? guess that's what I'm asking. is it a street address, post office box, electronically?
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Postby Ronny » Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:16 pm

This is like that old joke: "I know everything, pay up or I'll tell". Everyone is guilty of something. And with filesharers, we all know what they're guilty of :wink:

The legal firm is probably legit, but I think they are being involved in a scam or near-scam.

Scam goes as follows:
1. Have a product that is being shared illegally.
2. Find a bunch of filesharers on a p2p network where it is easy to identify the filesharers.
3. Go to a legal firm with the "evidence".
4. All the filesharers get a letter telling them to pay up or go to court.

Now, with most filesharers this will hit too close to home for comfort. Quite a few will pay up and count themselves lucky that all was not revealed.

It's like spam or phishing. There's a million filesharers out there, most of them are guilty of sharing something. If only a small percentage of them pay up, then the scam is successful. The RIAA have been using this tactic for years now, why shouldn't others copy them?

If you can't make money on sales, make money on lost sales 8)
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Postby johnnny5 » Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:18 pm

Was anyone "caught" using any program apart from limewire, emule or bittorrent? Were you automatically uploading what you were downloading?

If so, they've got you over a barrel AFAICS.

Of course, if you and no-one in your household has ever heard of this game then you must fight.
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Postby monkeynoises » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:58 pm

My reference says NCIP/TOP.7.1 too.

NOW.....what kind of solicitors sends out a letter with the SAME reference to letters to DIFFERENT people? I thought a reference on a letter was supposed to be unique!
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Postby monkeynoises » Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:03 pm

Dynasty wrote:
monkeynoises wrote:"TopWare Interactive is based in Las Vegas, Nevada. The company publishes interactive consumer software products in North America and is establishing a vast portfolio from budget to console. TopWare is set to launch over 13 titles for the 2005 holiday season and has plans to launch over 50 titles in 2006."

Presumably, they are the publisher (not necessarily the producer) and distributor of the game in the USA...while in Europe the producer sells the game?

On the letter you should have a Reference...it says something like TOP.X.Y....where X and Y are numbers.

My reference was NCIP/X.1/Virgin Media Formerly known as NTL - the X was between 1 and 9, single digit.

If there are people out there with an X number greater than 10, then please post a message here saying so.

Otherwise if everyone has single digit X numbers, then that would seem odd indeed.

On the Bank Transfer page it uses the TOP reference number for the payment reference.

Whatever you do, you must reply within 14 days, otherwise they can get summary judgement, and you are screwed then - you are assumed to be guilty.


just looked at my ref its showing as numbers 7.1


--edit--

just noticed at the end of the letter it says

Yours Faithfully
DavenportLyons
Davenport Lyons

now correct me if im wrong as im not sure here but letters come with an actual persons name and not the companys??


Yes, the biggest clue is this signature...I mean, when was the last time you a letter signed as a company !
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Postby Bruce Wayne » Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:29 pm

Did somebody of you live close to this place so you can go to the office with that letter and say,
hey what that all about.....

Or try to speak to somebody there.....
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Postby MrFredPFL » Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:34 pm

i've seen letters signed with a company name before. it may be odd, but i sure wouldn't consider it any more proof of anything than a photoshopped screenshot ;)

and the reference numbers? again, what proof is that? for all anyone knows, they indicate the identity of the person who posted the letter, or the office number from which it originated, or who knows what else.

don't get me wrong - i find this whole thing very suspicious. but that is NOT because of the reference numbers or the lack of a specific name on the letter.
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Postby GraphiX » Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:26 pm

lol what makes it suspicious lets see.

you've all been cited for downloading Pinball Dreams nothing else.

now either you have downloaded this or you havn't a majority i believe have not
not because i beleive you personally but with the vast majority of content out there
why would you all decide to go for some crappy game no-one has ever heard of.
when there is popular games out there far more advanced and most wanted than this crap.

And yes i can believe 99% here have access to the top stuff i mean popular games/movies/apps/tv etc.
so there is no reason for anyone to go for something
that is as cheap and shitty as this game probably is

you know its sad to actually see you all posting about paying because they said they
have proof, what proof? they've not even showed you no damn evidence and even then
what evidence are they using? a screenshot a notepad log file? pfft.. how is that proof?
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Postby Nutty-Slack » Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:28 pm

MrFredPFL wrote:i've seen letters signed with a company name before. it may be odd, but i sure wouldn't consider it any more proof of anything than a photoshopped screenshot ;)

and the reference numbers? again, what proof is that? for all anyone knows, they indicate the identity of the person who posted the letter, or the office number from which it originated, or who knows what else.

don't get me wrong - i find this whole thing very suspicious. but that is NOT because of the reference numbers or the lack of a specific name on the letter.


It's all extremely curious, but I guess that's a big part of the aggressor's advantage.
These glorified desk clerks/debt collectors know full well that the average person just isn't going to be able to comprehend and react to even the most basic legal issues within a mere 14 days.
Getting an appointment with the "Citizen's Advice Bureau" for example would probably take at least two weeks where I live.
Even if all this crap is legal, it needs some serious revision in terms of timescales and of making people aware of their rights and what's legal and what isn't etc.
Otherwise, what is essentially some harmless file-sharing is quickly going to turn into the widescale legal and financial persecution of ordinary Internet users.

The predominant factor of relevance to me is that 'this firm' clearly has obtained court orders and therefore identified the perps directly.
That means that the matter has entered the legal realm.
Unfortunately, being granted the court order is already a partial indictment of probable guilt from the court.

There doesn't seem to be much alternative here other than taking these to court, unless you guys want to just pay up and then live without ever knowing: What? Who? Why? Where? etc.
You should have a better than average chance of brushing these charges off with a well directed defence, especially since there isn't a huge amount of precedence for cases like this in the UK.
Even something as obvious (and much vaunted) as the 'ol "open wireless network" defence could well fly.

Quibus Societas Nobis Intemporaliter
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Postby nudone » Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:20 am

It also appears that Davenport Lyons are guilty of inconsistency.

I have a letter that asks that I sign my name against the demands of their client, Topware.

I have been in contact with someone else that has received a similar letter that asks that they personally sign their name to Topware’s demands, PLUS any other third parties.

In other words, that you also agree not to share property that is not related to Topware.

I’ve double checked what my letter says and it definitely does not mention anything about third parties, it is strictly to do with Topware.


Obviously this is a little strange. Why have different demands for different people.

Has anyone else received a letter that uses ‘third parties’ within the demands that Davenport Lyons are making?
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Postby lifes2short4shit » Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:34 am

My letter has NCIP/TOP7.1 on it as well!!![/quote]
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Postby hipraptor » Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:27 am

Nutty-Slack wrote:<snip>

You should have a better than average chance of brushing these charges off with a well directed defence, especially since there isn't a huge amount of precedence for cases like this in the UK.
Even something as obvious (and much vaunted) as the 'ol "open wireless network" defence could well fly.


Problem is that it will take loads of cash to get a good legal defense and so most of us who will fight this will more then likley have to do so on there own or maybe with a little help from the CAB.

Really I think that Davenport know that the odds are in their favour, but in my case fight I will on behalf of my wife who is the account holder.

Of course we have no money or property and so if they did win, they cannot get blood out of a stone.
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Postby mickyq » Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:51 am

as i posted yesterday my isp virgin media have not gave any information to davenport lyons, they are going to confirm this in writing.
davenport lyons claim virgin media charged them £49 for the information they recieved, therefore if virgin media confirm, as they have promised to confirm no info was given out the original letter sent to me by davenport lyons is trying to extort money from me under false pretenses, now i would hope any court in the land would recognise this.
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Postby enigmax » Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:07 am

Some questions

1. Has anyone who has received a letter telephoned Davenport Lyons to see what their take is on this?

2. Would anyone here let me see their letter from Davenport Lyons? Obviously you should blank out your own details to retain your privacy.

3. Has anyone been accused of using any network other than ed2k (edonkey/emule)? Also, if you happen to know the link you are accused of using, could that information be passed to me please?

4. Who are the ISP's involved? Virgin has been mentioned. How many others?

If people would rather discuss in private, i'm available on enigmax[at]torrentfreak.com

It would be really nice to get to the bottom of this. thankyou
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