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Postby Mel_Smiley_VIP » Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:08 am

I wonder where the BS came from that 56k users up is equal to their down? You guys have had broadband too long! lol

Anytime my download speed would get going good(about 2/3k my upload stream would almost crap out and slow down my downloads. When downloading you need some of your upstream to check to make sure your files are being recieved intact. I don't know how many times I've had 56k people say they dont allow people to download from them because it slows their downloads down. Even with broadband if my downloads get fast enough, I have to cap my upstream or it slows my downloads.

But 56k should not be banned, their bandwidth can't be hurting anything.
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Postby iNaNimAtE » Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:18 am

Mel_Smiley_VIP wrote:I wonder where the BS came from that 56k users up is equal to their down? You guys have had broadband too long! lol

Yeah I guess so...

But still, a lot of people missed that we (at least I) was talking theoretically. I'm just talking about the capacities of both upload and download.

Now would you agree with me that 56Kbps users can upload at the same rate as they can download, theoretically (and not simeltaneously)?
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Postby Mel_Smiley_VIP » Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:38 am

iNaNimAtE wrote:
Now would you agree with me that 56Kbps users can upload at the same rate as they can download, theoretically (and not simeltaneously)?


Not simeltaneosly,, yes. It could be possible.
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Postby BigWillyStyle42 » Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm

If the hardware was different then sure they could upload at the same rate that they download, but that holds true for ALL internet connections.
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Postby iNaNimAtE » Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:05 pm

BigWillyStyle42 wrote:If the hardware was different then sure they could upload at the same rate that they download, but that holds true for ALL internet connections.

Including ADSL that gives you 1.5Mbit download and 128Kbps upload?

I don't think so...
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Postby BigWillyStyle42 » Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:17 pm

iNaNimAtE wrote:
BigWillyStyle42 wrote:If the hardware was different then sure they could upload at the same rate that they download, but that holds true for ALL internet connections.

Including ADSL that gives you 1.5Mbit download and 128Kbps upload?

I don't think so...

You don't think they could provide hardware that allowed you 1.5Mbit download and 1.5Mbit upload?

Or rather, do you seriously think that the DSL modem can't upload faster than 128kbps? If it wasn't capped it could upload just as fast as it downloads.
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Re: origins of symmetry

Postby moculon » Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:36 pm

BigWillyStyle42 wrote:
moculon wrote:well if ed2k qs were caused purely by the asymmetric connections then the avg u/l on the network would equal the average d/l. this probably isn't the case as most people upload way more than they download. the reason this happens is because it's part system spreads the parts u share very widely (which improves network retention of files etc etc). however this spread causes parts to be shared to users who give up (i myself have given up on something on emule and found it somewhere else in the mean time). so huge amounts of your b/w go to people who will never even get the file.

So if the average download speed doesn't equal the average upload speed where does the extra bandwidth go?


ok u blind or just didn't read the post. of course the network up = down but as i explained individually our up is always more than our down on ed2k because the wide spreading of parts and hence lower start rates causes huge abandonment from users. hence parts disappear to users who do not continue to participate in the network.
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Postby iNaNimAtE » Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:53 pm

BigWillyStyle42 wrote:You don't think they could provide hardware that allowed you 1.5Mbit download and 1.5Mbit upload?

Or rather, do you seriously think that the DSL modem can't upload faster than 128kbps? If it wasn't capped it could upload just as fast as it downloads.

Oh yes, I know that. I can upgrade to get 768 upload if I want, using the same exact hardware I have now. The thing is, though, DSL providers cap your speeds intentionally for financial reasons (which I have no doubt you know), not because of physical hardware limitations. 56Kbps, on the other hand, is not capped intentionally by ISPs (at least as far as I know), so it becomes a hardware issue when you're maxing out your bandwidth at the same time.

The point is, 56Kbps are symmertical connections, are they not? ADSL connections, on the other hand, are asymmetrical connections, hence the asymmetrical digital subscriber line. If you get an SDSL line, giving you 768Kbps both ways, that doesn't mean that you can be downloading and uploading data at 768Kbps both ways at the same exact time. It just means that the data has the capability to be transferred at 768Kbps both ways; just like 56Kbps has the capacity to be transferred at 56Kbps both ways, which is unlike ADSL due to the capped bandwidth.

And please don't come in with the "56k can only transfer at 42.846Kbps whatever" because I really don't care about exactly how fast it is, I care about the principle. If I wanted to find the true value, trust me, I could.
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Postby HEAT84 » Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:01 am

I don't know if this is true but I heard that its possible to transfer data faster than 56K via dial-up but the FCC doesn't allow it for some reason. You know how when you do the properties for the modem and go to the tab that has the volume adjustment and speed selection. The highest speed you can select is 115200 which is probably the true maximum speed data can be transfered via dial-up. And incedentally 115200 is for some reason the default setting. And there is such a thing as symmetrical DSL. Asymmetrical internet connections are more common probably because people do alot more downloading than uploading.


I was just thinking. The FCC only has jurisdiction in the USA right? So why aren't there faster than 56K dial-up modems made for the rest of the world?
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Postby Mel_Smiley_VIP » Tue Aug 24, 2004 4:34 am

I remember reading along time ago 56k speeds were restricted to lower speeds was because the extra juice caused bleed over into other phone lines causing noise and an even worse connection. I was never sure if that was true.

My electric company is starting their own ISP which is supposed to be up by years end, but it has been delayed several times already. Their ads say "The most advanced network in the nation!" Which if it does what they say it will do, I have no doubt. They will be offering a 10M up 10M down package to the average user! That will proably burn out my ethernet card because thats max but I got to try it! lol
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Postby BigWillyStyle42 » Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:39 pm

iNaNimAtE wrote:The point is, 56Kbps are symmertical connections, are they not?

No they are not. They never have been. When the v0.92 standard was developed a couple years ago it made them closer to being symmetrical, but their still asymmetric. And you can use both your upstream and downstream to their limit at the same time, as you can with most connections.

iNaNimAtE wrote:If you get an SDSL line, giving you 768Kbps both ways, that doesn't mean that you can be downloading and uploading data at 768Kbps both ways at the same exact time.

In most cases you can use both streams at the same time at their maximum rate. The only time you can't is when the connection isn't duplex. You can see this easily with your network card, you can set the interface to full or half duplex.

HEAT84 wrote:The highest speed you can select is 115200 which is probably the true maximum speed data can be transfered via dial-up.

That's actually the maximum speed of a COM port.
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Postby iNaNimAtE » Tue Aug 24, 2004 4:50 pm

BigWillyStyle42 wrote:No they are not. They never have been. When the v0.92 standard was developed a couple years ago it made them closer to being symmetrical, but their still asymmetric. And you can use both your upstream and downstream to their limit at the same time, as you can with most connections.

So then what is the upstream, and what is the downstream?

BigWillyStyle42 wrote:In most cases you can use both streams at the same time at their maximum rate. The only time you can't is when the connection isn't duplex. You can see this easily with your network card, you can set the interface to full or half duplex.

But you still need some upload bandwidth available when downloading (as said by yourself).
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Postby TDO » Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:46 pm

"They will be offering a 10M up 10M down package to the average user!"

Aaah, I want that ...


Poor 56k'ers :), I think I would rather go to hell then have the 56k era brought back on me :).

I however belive that the "dialers" contribution to the p2p is "limited" at best - true that if you have 10 people with the same file you just might have 30k/s from them ... but dialers have the tendency to disconnect - since they pay per minute(usually, though not always).

The killing of the 56k users has already been done in DC I belive :), and I think it's a pretty fast net - no ?, but there - there's the issue of mandatory upload, so ..

I don't have a strong opinion about the banning of the 56k people .. however, to be one sided and say "no !, protect the poor 56k'ers" would be silly, there are pros and cons both ways.

But .. personally I don't care, really - I max my connection easily - so everything is fine I guess :) - but don't catch me on it, I haven't made up my mind yet .. there are many things to think about in this situation.
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Postby iNaNimAtE » Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:15 pm

Mel_Smiley_VIP wrote:They will be offering a 10M up 10M down package to the average user! That will proably burn out my ethernet card because thats max but I got to try it! lol

Check out BBB, a Swedish ISP. They already offer something like that for the equivilent of $23USD. Shows how we're getting ripped off.
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Postby BigWillyStyle42 » Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:58 pm

iNaNimAtE wrote:
BigWillyStyle42 wrote:No they are not. They never have been. When the v0.92 standard was developed a couple years ago it made them closer to being symmetrical, but their still asymmetric. And you can use both your upstream and downstream to their limit at the same time, as you can with most connections.

So then what is the upstream, and what is the downstream?

It's been a while, but I believe the upstream is near 48000bps and the downstream is capped at 53000bps by the FCC. So it's really close to being symmetrical, but just not quite there.

iNaNimAtE wrote:
BigWillyStyle42 wrote:In most cases you can use both streams at the same time at their maximum rate. The only time you can't is when the connection isn't duplex. You can see this easily with your network card, you can set the interface to full or half duplex.

But you still need some upload bandwidth available when downloading (as said by yourself).

You're confusing two different things.

Case 1: TCP Overhead

This is what you were just referring to. For every X bytes you download you need to send an acknowledgement packet to the uploader so that they know you have received the data. This has nothing to do with your hardware.


Case 2: Half vs Full Duplex

I'll use a 10Mbit ethernet connection for an example. If it is full duplex then you can transfer at 10Mbit in both directions at the same time. If it is half duplex then you can transfer at 10Mbit total in both directions, so if you're uploading at 9Mbit you can only download at 1Mbit. Half duplex connections aren't very common.
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Postby Mel_Smiley_VIP » Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:08 pm

Yes, what bigwilly said. Explained very well I might add. If you have a lot of different downloads going at once, thats when your upload takes a bigger hit.
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Postby iNaNimAtE » Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:15 pm

BigWillyStyle42 wrote:This is what you were just referring to. For every X bytes you download you need to send an acknowledgement packet to the uploader so that they know you have received the data. This has nothing to do with your hardware.

That's the idea though. If you're using all of your upload and download bandwidth, then you don't have any more upload bandwidth to send the ACK packet, no?
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Postby BigWillyStyle42 » Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:06 pm

iNaNimAtE wrote:
BigWillyStyle42 wrote:This is what you were just referring to. For every X bytes you download you need to send an acknowledgement packet to the uploader so that they know you have received the data. This has nothing to do with your hardware.

That's the idea though. If you're using all of your upload and download bandwidth, then you don't have any more upload bandwidth to send the ACK packet, no?

Exactly, but that's a _software_ issue, not a hardware issue. With traffic shaping software you can make it work out really well.
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