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Decentralized network, can it be done and how?

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Is it possible to make a COMPLETELY decentralized network?

Yes
28
90%
No
3
10%
 
Total votes : 31

Decentralized network, can it be done and how?

Postby _eAgLe_ » Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:44 pm

Hey all. Well seeing as we're all interested in a REAL decentralized network, i was wandering if anyone here thought that it is really possible. No doubt i have though a lot about this and each time i think of a network it has to connect to a server, but i have cut the servers work down anyway. This is my idea:
There is a person who is called the 'connectorator' :) , and his IP is sent to my server. This person is kept as the connectorator for 2 mins. Each person that logs on, sends search requests to that conectorator, that 'connectorator' then sends the rquest to the previous 'connectorator' and so on, this is kind of how gnutella works, a little bit.

I know this idea has flaws, i was not really planning on using it or anything :) :shock: , I know that searching would be pretty slow. but i was just wandering if anyone else had any ideas on how THEY would make there own decentralized network. My idea is just something to kick off this thread.

So, fire away, lets hear your ideas, no matter how rediculous they are :) .
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Postby rickjames29 » Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:51 pm

i voted yes but im not sure it could be done but that would be the tightest that happened to p2p
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Postby _eAgLe_ » Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:54 pm

lol, its ok freeP2P. It'll be good to see what everybody THINKS too anyway. I honestly think that it isn't possible to make a COMPLETELY decentralized network. So i'm voting no. I think that at some stage it will have to conect to some server. But lets see what everyone else thinks...
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Postby soma » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:11 pm

The next logical stepping stone in decentralized p2p will require more from the individual users no doubt. It will most likely include a plague affect, where a list of files and peers are passed around a network by contact with other members. So, if PeerA connects to PeerB, he is sent the info to connect with PeerC and PeerD. However, this method will most likely slow down the time it takes to make the first complete downloads of new files, and will take several hours, if not a few days to make its way all over the network. Also, it will most likely be very heavy on the bandwidth making it difficult to use for low bandwidth kiddies, or people behind a router/firewall without mapped ports.

You heard it here first, kiddos.
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Postby _eAgLe_ » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:20 pm

Both our ideas, Soma, have really already been done. The Gnutella network takes hold of both our ideas already. But before PeerA connects to PeerB, it needs to know what PeerB is (its IP Address), so IMO it is not possible to make a COMPLETELY decentralized network, because at sometime, a client MUST connect to the server to ask for PeerA's IP Address. Do you see what im getting at.... Well nonetheless its still a pretty good idea. But we're trying to get something completely new and decentralized, but im not sure that it can be done... More thoughts would be appreciated...
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Re: Decentralized network, can it be done and how?

Postby bean999 » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:21 pm

IlL-eAgLe wrote:I know this idea has flaws...

Well, that word 'connectorator', it's never going to catch on :wink:

Um voted yes, eventually. But that's because I was thinking of Freenet. That's decentralised. And very slow.

So 'yes, and no' should really be my answer.

Your connectorator btw - is that like a new user who assumes the role of a supernode, but only temporarily. Meanwhile you have a central server relieved by new supernodes. Is that the kind of thing?
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Postby Jabryl » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:26 pm

There are several fully decentralized networks out there. Overnet and Kad are decentralized. Fasttrack and Gnutella are not fully decentralized but they don't use regular servers either.
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New Projects You may not have hear about

Postby 3rdGen » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:30 pm

You don't need IP address to route queries and files

Project X does not use IP addresses.

Project X discription:

Abstract

The main problems of the 2-nd generation p2p nets (as well as the 1-st one) are two: the complete lack of privacy and data protection and the lack of structured queries. Doing queries over the net we can see who's connected and what he's sharing. This is not acceptable if we care about our privacy... furthermore we usually have many problems in finding what we are looking for: queries support in common p2p system is usually not-stuctured and exact text-matching based, so we cannot exploit SQL-like features (join and so on...) over the net data-set. This project tries to resolve both the problems.

The privacy problem

It faces the privacy one breaking the ebsence of p2p... I mean a connection is not anymore point 2 point in the strict sense... the peers are virtual peers over a virtual net, so when we are requiring a resource over the net, our request is routed through many points utill it reach our peer. The peers are not anymore identified by ip... the have a unique ID produced hashing infos from their time and their location (this yields a unique hash). So a client now knows only the ips of its neighbours (the other peers directly connected to it), but it doesn't know their ID, as only the same node knows its ID. So what about routing, how can a node route a message if it doesn't know where the destination is? Simple... a node will know which are the "best" direction to route a message to, but it will not know where precisely another node is. The routing protocol has been developed over studies on ants behaviour... ants do not know the precise location of their hive, they simply follow a track... the same happends in this system. So the more messages follow a track the more that track will be "strong", if a track produces many failures it'll fade out and it won't be followed anymore. This way we can achieve privacy over our identity, but what about the informations sent? They have to route through many peers so how can we protect 'em? The protection is realized at 2 levels... low level (against man-in-the-middle extern to our net) by crypting communication between each couple of directly linked points of the net, high level (against internal threats) crypting the communication between the two end points. At both level the security is granted using a DH-KA and DES or AES (negotiated at the beginning).

So you are on the right track

This is an open source project on Sourceforge being developed by a student read about it at zeropaid.

SlyckTom was speaking to them today so maybe he is about to write a story about it.
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Postby _eAgLe_ » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:30 pm

Well yes bean999 thats my general idea, but i wasnt going to use it or anything, and the name is just stupid i know, but i couldnt think of anything at the time :D ,and i suppose its like a temporary supernode...... Also Jabryl or anyone, i thought that Overnet connected to servers, lots of them, like edonkey. Am i right? I've never used Kad, so how does that work? Sorry about all these questions... :)
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Postby Hostfat » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:33 pm

Overnet is a pure serverless/decentralized network :wink:
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Postby Jabryl » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:35 pm

No, Overnet doesn't connect to servers. It uses something called a distributed hash table, don't ask me how it works, but it does.
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Postby soma » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:38 pm

IlL-eAgLe:
But before PeerA connects to PeerB, it needs to know what PeerB is (its IP Address), so IMO it is not possible to make a COMPLETELY decentralized network, because at sometime, a client MUST connect to the server to ask for PeerA's IP Address.


No, no, no. You would have to have someone already on the network to help you get on. You would have to enter their IP address and once you connect to them, you would be given access to their ever growing list of users ;p Making it possible not to need a server of any kind. However, then comes questions of safety. Encryptions exist, but the truth of the matter is that as long as reverse-engineering can take place, our IP will never be able to hide in such a network. And lets face it, protowall cant stop ALL of them.
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Postby _eAgLe_ » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:38 pm

So this hashtable, where does it download it from. or am i thinking about the wrong type of thing, does anyone know what it is?
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Postby Hostfat » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:40 pm

It ( Overnet ) uses Kademlia.
You can download some docs here: http://www.rateless.com/pubs.html
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Postby _eAgLe_ » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:41 pm

Yes this is my point soma, where would you get that IP Address to type in to recieve the list of users? Would it come from a central server or would you have to guess :D or something else.

EDIT: BTW, thanx for those links, i will read them.
Last edited by _eAgLe_ on Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby BigWillyStyle42 » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:41 pm

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Postby bean999 » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:43 pm

IlL-eAgLe wrote:before PeerA connects to PeerB, it needs to know what PeerB is (its IP Address), so IMO it is not possible to make a COMPLETELY decentralized network, because at sometime, a client MUST connect to the server to ask for PeerA's IP Address

Or some way of knowing there is a PeerB in the first place, then a way of finding PeerB.

So a boot strap as in Kad, or a node list. Q is do you call this a kind of centralization?

Albeit no servers in the network.
---
Edit: As I see has already been addressed...
:oops: note to self - don't get distracted while posting by reading emule/kad FAQ
---
Last edited by bean999 on Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby soma » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:43 pm

you would already have to have a friend on the network to gain access to a list. So, no server, just the knowledge of an IP address with an IP library already.
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Postby Jabryl » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:44 pm

Hostfat wrote:It ( Overnet ) uses Kademlia.
You can download some docs here: http://www.rateless.com/pubs.html


WTF!? I thought that Kad was based on Overnet.
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Postby Hostfat » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:46 pm

"Kad", the serverless part of eMule? Yes, it is based on Overnet ... but Overnet is based on Kademlia ;)
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Postby _eAgLe_ » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:47 pm

Hey bean999, about that question, i did think that it was a kind of centralization, but i suppose downloading a node list would be ok, its not REALLY centralized i guess.
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?

Postby rickjames29 » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:47 pm

i think if all these programs and sites would combine and make one big server/site/program it would be possible then no one would argue about what is the best program or site it will be all-in-one but it will take alot of time --- we hope


eDonkey2K
FastTrack
Warez
Gnutella
Overnet
DirectConnect
MP2P
Filetopia
mininova.org
lokitorrent.org
......
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Postby BigWillyStyle42 » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:47 pm

Jabryl wrote:
Hostfat wrote:It ( Overnet ) uses Kademlia.
You can download some docs here: http://www.rateless.com/pubs.html


WTF!? I thought that Kad was based on Overnet.

eMule developers just aren't very imaginative with names.

Overnet is based on the Kademlia routing protocol developed by Petar somebody or other and some other peeps at MIT.
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Postby bean999 » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:51 pm

IlL-eAgLe wrote:i did think that it was a kind of centralization, but i suppose downloading a node list would be ok, its not REALLY centralized i guess.

I wondered about it too, but skip this hurdle & the result of the poll should be a big YES :)
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Postby Hostfat » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:53 pm

They have probably chosen "Kad" because it is a good "spamming name" ;)
Do you remember the default nick on eMule clients? :D
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