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Postby GraphiX » Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:30 pm

what have you got against me fartingbob?

i knew someone would say this and i was ready for it
and i even knew somehow it would of been yourself.

what do you think all the drm in the hardware is for?
what do you think the 31 levels of DRM inside vista is for?

your saying im wrong about it not allowing you to
store ISO's on the hard-drive

so what is all these 30+ levels of drm about?
you not think sooner or later they are going to be
using the vesel that is Vista + hardware so that
you CANNOT store un-DRM'd files to your hdd etc?

why you think there is DRM inside hdd's now?
it tripped and fell in?

why is there DRM inside Intel & AMD chips now?
and blueray etc etc.. did that just fall in too?

it's there... and its ready for a reason.
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Postby Maestro120 » Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:33 pm

I've got to agree Farting Bob. Like you said, 90% of computer users won't be in the least bothered by the DRM. The remaining 10% would be the most knowlegable about these things and would be in the best position to find a "workaround" when it comes to DRM.

And furthermore I don't buy that "Vista is unhackable" bullshit. As long as its software made up of code, its hackable fullstop. Maybe if Intel gets in the act and hardwires their chips to Vista then I may agree with with Graphics. But until then, all of this is just fearmongering.
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Postby Fartingbob » Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:39 pm

GraphiX wrote:what have you got against me fartingbob?

i knew someone would say this and i was ready for it
and i even knew somehow it would of been yourself.

what do you think all the drm in the hardware is for?
what do you think the 31 levels of DRM inside vista is for?

your saying im wrong about it not allowing you to
store ISO's on the hard-drive

so what is all these 30+ levels of drm about?
you not think sooner or later they are going to be
using the vesel that is Vista + hardware so that
you CANNOT store un-DRM'd files to your hdd etc?

why you think there is DRM inside hdd's now?
it tripped and fell in?

why is there DRM inside Intel & AMD chips now?
and blueray etc etc.. did that just fall in too?

it's there... and its ready for a reason.

So your arguement is because there are 31 kinds of DRm taht are compatible in vista, that every insane consipiracy theory about MS must be true?
If you can find links to prove that you cannot store any ISO on the HDD. The reason that so many types of DRM are compatitible with vista is because those DRM companies pay Ms to include it so that they can then sell their DRM as vista compatible. It does not mean that MS wants to stop you at every turn, it means that Ms likes making money, and this is one way of doing it.

You need more tin foil to go on your hat.
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Postby GraphiX » Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:03 pm

if Intel gets in the act and hardwires their chips to Vista then I may agree with with Graphics. But until then, all of this is just fearmongering.

what do you mean if????

it's been done its happened intel have had
DRM inside Pentium D chipsets since last year.

this next round of dual core chips have
Excecute Protection technology built into it
as well as various other DRM.

so what do you mean IF?
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Postby Fartingbob » Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:11 pm

What i dont fully understand is sure, CPU's like the pentium D have DRM in them. But what does that actually do. I mean, in the real world, who notices? What does it restrict?
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Postby GraphiX » Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:26 pm

lol o come on it doesn't do ANYthing yet bob
that is because there isn't an OS available yet that supports TrustedComputing platform.

Vista is the first OS that will support TrustedComputing

this isn't going to take place over night obviously this is going to be activated within 3-4 months after vista is wide and mainstream then there is no going back other than to leave MS or install a old OS again.

DRM is in hardware now for the future not the present
but it will only be activated once it has a vessel

and vista is that vessel
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Postby GraphiX » Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:48 pm

okies not totally off topic but since you asking about drm and IF" it gets added to hardware

i've mentioned AMD,INTEL,MS

now IBM are at it too

below is the story of the DRM blue Chip.

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/chips/ ... 333,00.htm

The Secure Blue technology is meant to keep all of your data secure, all of the time

Researchers at IBM have come up with a way to hard wire encryption technology into a processor, promising a more secure way to store data.

IBM plans to announce availability of the new technology, dubbed Secure Blue, on Monday. The company envisions its idea and technology will be used in digital media players, electronic organisers, mobile phones, computers and devices used by the government, medical, and financial services industry

he idea of hardware-based security is not new. Millions of laptops already contain a chip called a Trusted Platform Module, or TPM, which offers protected storage of encryption keys, passwords and digital certificates. The idea of the TPM is also coming to servers and mobile phones.
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Postby Fartingbob » Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:04 pm

GraphiX wrote:lol o come on it doesn't do ANYthing yet bob
that is because there isn't an OS available yet that supports TrustedComputing platform.

Vista is the first OS that will support TrustedComputing

this isn't going to take place over night obviously this is going to be activated within 3-4 months after vista is wide and mainstream then there is no going back other than to leave MS or install a old OS again.

DRM is in hardware now for the future not the present
but it will only be activated once it has a vessel

and vista is that vessel

So.......What will it do in reality to the average consumer having a form of DRM on the CPU? I mean specifics, not jsut "restrict them".
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Postby zim » Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:13 pm

first get the drm hardware as the only option. THEN turn it on.



"this program may be cracked or has an invalid license, please contact your vendor"

"this media file does not have a valid license"

"this debugger cannot be run while XYZ is running"

"you cant change that part of windows"


just some examples. and in all cases it will refuse to run. since you no longer control your pc. and there wont be any workarounds. both because of the difficulty in doing so. and having your pc narc on you for doing that which would be illegal under the dmca.
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Postby JayC32 » Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:16 pm

I agree with farting the average user is not us, the average user most probably wouldn't know about these boards or about other things along these lines. Nor do they care about copying.

As long as it plays games, videos, music and runs software they will be happy. Don't think Vista will not do what the average user wants.

The average users' PC literacy has dropped since the price of PCs dropped. Few of them wil go out and learn how to do things themselves, they are those of our friends who phone us and say things like "My Pc won't turn on why?!!!" and when you ask "What have you tried?" they reply "I just phoned you".

As Farting has said just because it is compatible with so many DRMs is for business reasons. Jsust the same as when businesses pay MS to certify their drivers.

As has been said as long as software is made up of code it will be hackable. They said roughly the same about XPs security and it was hacked.

They can't stop you storing anytype of file on your PC that is just too far a conspiracy theory. How the hell would they know the source of the file type? It can be individually made by friends (for example home movies done a a DV camera) who aren't, nor would they know how to, DRM a file.
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Postby Fartingbob » Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:20 pm

zim wrote:first get the drm hardware as the only option. THEN turn it on.



"this program may be cracked or has an invalid license, please contact your vendor"

"this media file does not have a valid license"

"this debugger cannot be run while XYZ is running"

"you cant change that part of windows"


just some examples. and in all cases it will refuse to run. since you no longer control your pc. and there wont be any workarounds. both because of the difficulty in doing so. and having your pc narc on you for doing that which would be illegal under the dmca.

Thanks, so basically it will act like current software DRM but be harder to circumvent?
Well it sure could suck alot, although i guess it will depend hugely on what types of DRM it will recognise and react to.
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Postby GraphiX » Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:20 pm

specifics:

ok the specifics are:

1. will stop all emulation applications
this will stop you mounting images and running them.

2. will stop you playing/storing all files on a hdd
that doesn't have a DRM/Watermark licence with it
this incl everything copyrighted regardless.

3. if it's not DRMd/Watermarked it will make the
choice that it isn't legal and will dissable from that file from executing

4. it will stop all S-Video out from working meaning you wont be-able to use TV out or TV in if the file is flagged as copyrighted or watermakred/drm'd.

5.if the file or contents have been tampered with it will dissable them from working or running.

6. it will basically take over your pc and start making choices for you on what it thinks it is legal or not legal and it will make the choice if it runs not you.

it's called Palladium,
wanna know more about it? read this below
it will open your eyes.

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html

i could go on and on and on but i think deep down the people here that have a ounce of sense about them knows what im sayin is going to happen

why do you think like i said they put all this into new hardware and into vista? if it wasn't going to be used worldwide for something they've been working on this since early 1990's and now its come to light.
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Postby GraphiX » Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:24 pm

JayC32
They can't stop you storing anytype of file on your PC that is just too far a conspiracy theory. How the hell would they know the source of the file type? It can be individually made by friends (for example home movies done a a DV camera) who aren't, nor would they know how to, DRM a file.


like they care about that hell microsoft are even making freely available creative commons mp3's transfered on the Zune into DRM play 3 times files.

so why will they care about if you or a friend or someone with a camera made a video thats not protected?

how will it know if it's drm'd or not easy
the machine does its checks for watermarks and DRM licence if it doesn't find it just to be safe it doesn't allow you to execute it or run it.
same as most of the DRM available right now

the whole idea is to make the entire pc a vending machine and it's not a conspiracy theory its actually happen right now under your own nose.

haha if MS cared at all or Companys about what we wanted we wouldn't have half the restrictions on everything as we do today.
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Postby Trumpeldor » Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:58 pm

many people on this thread are forgetting that the average user will suffer at least as an advanced user such as yourself...

ALL users have mp3, videos and programs on their computer they haven't payed for , and don't think they should...

the difference that an average user will realize that he can't use his files after he get the new slyck and shiny vista and won't know what to do.

if someway there will be someway around all those DRM protections, they will call you, and you will be stuck for hour helping all your average friends...
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Postby zim » Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:11 pm

GraphiX wrote:specifics:



exactly.



a nice little microsoft cop to watch you.

which all wouldnt be bad if it wasnt for the dmca that makes it illegal to circumvent the protections.

the vista license also says you cant work around any limitations. covering all bases.

we're well on our way to microsoft owning everyone. and nobody noticed till they were already half done.

and once they do they can charge whatever they want... whenever. the microsoft tax.

its closer than anyone seems to realize.
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Postby GraphiX » Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:18 pm

Except me and you zim lol

rest of the world just wanna stick their head into the sand and watch it smack them up the ass
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Postby MrFredPFL » Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:24 pm

yes, you and zim are the only people with a clue :roll:
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Postby Maestro120 » Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:40 pm

GraphiX wrote:

so why will they care about if you or a friend or someone with a camera made a video thats not protected?

how will it know if it's drm'd or not easy
the machine does its checks for watermarks and DRM licence if it doesn't find it just to be safe it doesn't allow you to execute it or run it.
same as most of the DRM available right now

the whole idea is to make the entire pc a vending machine and it's not a conspiracy theory its actually happen right now under your own nose.

haha if MS cared at all or Companys about what we wanted we wouldn't have half the restrictions on everything as we do today.


Your quote above sums up quite niceley why most conspiracy theories abvout Vista DRM locking people out of their computers is just that... conspiracy bullshit.

If its one thing we can all agree on when it comes to Microsoft, its that money is king. Money comes before all else and even though many on this board would rather swallow a 17" monitor rather than believe this, For Microsoft money comes before copyright protections, DRM and all that shit too. As long as Microsoft perceives that DRM doesn't affect its bottom line, sure it will play along.

But to use Graphix's example:

Say Little Johnny has a birthday party and Daddy films the whole shebang on his camcorder. Little Johnny ofcourse can't wait to see all his friends on video and pesters Daddy to put it on TV. Now Daddy fancies himself as a Computer afficiado (even though in reality he doesn't know jack shit) and decides that instead of just plugging the Camcorder into the TV he wants to burn the video to DVD to impress the guys at work with his coolness while satisfying the little brat. So Daddy downloads said video to computer in say, Mpeg format and then grins as he trys to preview the thing on screen. That grin turns to consternation and then blank shock as a message keeps popping up asking for the required license to play the recording. Finally a howl of outrage echoes through the house as Daddy gets nowhere while little Johnny starts crying cause he thinks the video is lost.

Now multiply that scenario a million times for all the households that will have Vista within 6 months. Pardon my language here, but you would have to be a F***ING IDIOT to think that Microsoft would want to have anything to do with the above scenario. DRM is only going to go as far the typical clueless User will put up with it.
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Postby GraphiX » Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:55 pm

thats happening right now with DRM as it stands
tell me the difference?

millions of people are sick and tired of DRM on apple and DRM on all the music sites, DRM on the Zune, DRM on the unbox from amazon.

hell microsoft wont care less they never have

here is my senario too you..

microsoft decided to delete all your non legal files
who you going to complain too? lol

solicitor? mr solicitor ms wiped of my illegal files?
or lets turn the other road have you got proof MS did this to your computer sir? nope i dont no case.

simple as that riaa/mpaa/powers that be will be happy
and that is all MS is happy about pleasing.
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Postby Dormant707 » Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:58 pm

DRM in Vista will not affect those with enough savvy to use BT or EMule to download Xvid television episodes. Nor will it affect those who download mp3s from the p2p networks and BT. What Vista will affect is copying of premium content - that is television episodes bought from Apple's iTune store or the future Microsoft Video store and Music store. DRM in Vista will affect WMA music files. That is what MS is more concerned about. Let us wait and see what comes with the final release copy of Vista before making lots of judgements prematurely.

Sure TPM is a concern to me. So too is DRM. But I think all the speculation in the world is not going bring about any change of opinion.

Will I be moving onto Vista from XP? Hell no. I am currently using SuSE Linux and I will be using Linux for a long time to come - it is a great OS and I have grown to really enjoy Linux and Open Source. XGL is coming and it will kick Aero's butt. But for the exception of games, I would not be using XP - I could use Wine, but I find it a pain in the ass.

I agree with the more rational comments - MS is not going to mess with the sheep. It does not want the sheep mad.
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Postby Maestro120 » Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:05 pm

GraphiX wrote:thats happening right now with DRM as it stands
tell me the difference?

millions of people are sick and tired of DRM on apple and DRM on all the music sites, DRM on the Zune, DRM on the unbox from amazon.

hell microsoft wont care less they never have

here is my senario too you..

microsoft decided to delete all your non legal files
who you going to complain too? lol

solicitor? mr solicitor ms wiped of my illegal files?
or lets turn the other road have you got proof MS did this to your computer sir? nope i dont no case.

simple as that riaa/mpaa/powers that be will be happy
and that is all MS is happy about pleasing.


You've got which type of people are sick and tired wrong. Its people like you and me who are sick and tired. People like us who value choice, fair use, and a little P2P on the side. You are right in that Microsoft doesn't give a fart about us. We are at best a nuicance and at worse, their worse enemy. But as far as sales for Microsoft are concerned, our contribution to the bottom line is insignificant.

Those who Microsoft really cares about would be Little Johnny and his Daddy (especially his Daddy). These are the ones that have made Microsoft into the World Powerhouse that it is now and it is those who Microsoft's Marketing engine will be aiming at come next year. I ask again, do you think MS is gonna stop Daddy from playing his home video on Vista OS ?

Incidently, chances are Johnny's Daddy has probably never heard of P2P other than "that illegal thing" and hence all the things that you and I take for granted and would miss if Vista were to stop it wouldn't affect him in the least. Ofcourse, you or I still wouldn't be affected becasue we are smart enough to find the workarounds to get past any and all of Vista's restrictions. Restrictions which are not going to be that tight in the first place because MS doesn't want to upset... say it with me now... Little Johnny's Daddy :P
Last edited by Maestro120 on Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby GraphiX » Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:08 pm

they dont wanna mess with the sheep? to late
they have already done that.

what you think about the WGA? and now OGA?
isn't that messing with the sheep? pissin people off?
do they care? hell no they now decided enough people
is way to anoyed what can we do? yes we'll make OGA now

they've spent over 6 years putting all this DRM into vista
it is there for a reason it is there to stop you
the DRM in hardware is there to stop you too

it's only time before its activated with TrustingComp
just remember these posts when you see hundreds of forums torrentsites/filesharing sites after xmas next year with topics like

HELP!!! none of my video's or music plays!
HElP!!! something has disabled all my files
HELP!!! where has my files gone only drm files left

<snip>
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Postby zim » Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:13 pm

yes. just keep repeating "microsoft would never do THAT"

it doesnt change the fact they will. and are.


and it doesnt change the fact that you'll feel mighty stupid once you figure it out.

:roll:

I pity you all for being short sighted consumers who think you are microsofts customers. and not part of the product paying to be delivered to the content producers.

But i pity myself more because you're dragging me into a computing future i dont want. And yet cant stop. Can't even wise anyone up.



Heres another crazy prediction... someday soon the "hackers" who you rely on to help you keep control of your own pc will be jailed under terrorisim laws.
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Postby Maestro120 » Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:13 pm

GraphiX wrote:
it's only time before its activated with TrustingComp
just remember these posts when you see hundreds of forums torrentsites/filesharing sites after xmas next year with topics like

HELP!!! none of my video's or music plays!
HElP!!! something has disabled all my files
HELP!!! where has my files gone only drm files left

<snip>


:D Graphix if you would slow down a minute you would see that you are just digging yourself a hole in this debate. Where did you say the complaints are gonna be posted ?

Sorry, little Johnny's Dad doesn't frequent those sites. :wink:
Only you and I.
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Postby JunqueMan » Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:29 pm

Maestro120 wrote:Sorry, little Johnny's Dad doesn't frequent those sites. :wink:
Only you and I.

Ah, but how many people visit YouTube? Or any other comparable site. Or how about any site that has any type of DRM'able (yes, I know it's not an actual term) content such as videos (WMV or otherwise), pictures (gif's, jpg's, etc), or audio (WMA, wave, mp3, etc) embedded in their website? Will every form of content have to be eventually licensed and then you have to prove you have the right to show that content?

It may or may not happen, but do you want to take that chance and let things continue to slide in that direction?

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