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Re: Questions about eDonkey2000/Kad/eMule

Postby napho » Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:13 pm

In practical terms, if you want to download a 15 year old movie and only eMule has it, big deal if it takes 4 days. It took 15 years to watch it, what's another 4 days. If you use eMule as your primary source of new material, you'll be downloading 50 things at once and getting near max speeds. Because you can't play 12 games or watch 8 TV shows or movies simultaneously, it doesn't really matter if you don't get them for 2 days. Some people hoard things for months or years before they get around to watching/listening. The bottom line is that rarely do we need something RIGHT NOW. That being said, I like 1.2MB/sec downloads from Usenet and BT. :oops: :)
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Re: Questions about eDonkey2000/Kad/eMule

Postby Andu » Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:45 pm

That's why I've been using ed2k and BT parallel for ages now. Pretty much since before BT became popular and had it's mainstream breakthrough.

Btw as for file retention Tom this might be something that makes it much real for you. I bet you still remember Sharereactor and Gowenna. Just recently I found a movie that Gowenna (it was certainly tagged with her nick) seems to have shared originally. So this movie was originally shared in 2001 or 2002 and still had quite a lot of sources.
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Re: Questions about eDonkey2000/Kad/eMule

Postby SlyckTom » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:22 am

So....there's two different components...the old eDonkey servers and Kad...both technically two different networks. The eDonkey server represent the way things used to be done, while Kad basically mimics the eDonkey protocol in a decentralized environment.

Now...despite the technological leap forward that eMule has brought, is everything still considered the eDonkey2000 community? The nomenclature defining things seems to have become muddled, but it seems to me that if I'm using the latest eMule release, no matter where I go (an eDonkey server, an ED2K link site, or Kad), I am part of the eDonkey2000 community - its just a matter of which network I'm on (kad or server).
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Re: Questions about eDonkey2000/Kad/eMule

Postby jimmy90 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:47 am

SlyckTom wrote:But doesn't BT also use a queuing system as well...or does the fast exchange of peers compensate for a potentially longer wait period?


IMO the main factor in the difference in speed of BT and ED2K is social. The technologies used are pretty much all the same.

People downloading a file through BT are dedicating all their available badwidth to downloading 1 torrent most of the time. They are not sharing any other files and for that session they do not want to download any other files. On top of that most everyone downloading that torrent are doing the same thing. Quite simply that file comes down faster because the peers have dedicated way more bandwidth to it.

ED2K enables a very different behaviour. You can download many different files and share many others. On top of that you can download a file whenever you like. ED2K files stick around a lot longer than torrents. This simply means that the bandwidth that is dedicated to ED2K by peers has a massive demand on it and is not focussed on any particular task - all requests are equally relevant to most ED2K peers.
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Re: Questions about eDonkey2000/Kad/eMule

Postby Ratt » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:34 pm

SlyckTom wrote:it seems to me that if I'm using the latest eMule release, no matter where I go (an eDonkey server, an ED2K link site, or Kad), I am part of the eDonkey2000 community - its just a matter of which network I'm on (kad or server).


Right, but it seems to me that for all intents and purposes, presently the network and community simply comes down to Kad. I don't have any hard numbers (whish I did...does anyone have some?) but it seems to me that the ed2k servers have dwindled, Edonkey the application is pretty much gone, ed2k links are used by a small minority only, and most Emule users connect with Kad. The backbone of the whole network is Kad, so they might as well start calling it ''the Kad network".
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Re: Questions about eDonkey2000/Kad/eMule

Postby SlyckTom » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:52 pm

Ratt wrote:The backbone of the whole network is Kad, so they might as well start calling it ''the Kad network".


That seems true enough. Even though it seems that the community has almost completely transitioned away from servers, it's still referred to as the "eDonkey2000 community". Maybe out of tradition/respect...I'm not sure...but it seems strange calling it the "Kad network" or "kad community". Perhaps that will change in the future...
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Re: Questions about eDonkey2000/Kad/eMule

Postby napho » Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:05 pm

Looks like it's been a slow transition to Kad. There are still 172 servers when I just connected, and only recently have Kad search results exceeded the servers.
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Re: Questions about eDonkey2000/Kad/eMule

Postby Overnet User » Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:30 pm

Ratt said» Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:34 pm
Right, but it seems to me that for all intents and purposes, presently the network and community simply comes down to Kad. I don't have any hard numbers (whish I did...does anyone have some?) but it seems to me that the ed2k servers have dwindled, Edonkey the application is pretty much gone, ed2k links are used by a small minority only, and most Emule users connect with Kad. The backbone of the whole network is Kad, so they might as well start calling it ''the Kad network".


I currently get 300 servers on the servers tab. Yes some of the servers are not usable and some of these servers are blocked (by me) from connecting to me. I still get 91% of users using ed2k/kad and kad only at 87%. This will vary though due to the files being shared and which files are dl/uploading between your cleint. As far as only a small minority using ed2k links, I wouldn't say that. There are lots of currently active ed2k linking sites with a large percentage of active users. These are predominately in places other than the US for hosting. Many are in other languages besides English although there are still lots of active English speaking sites around though too.

Looks like it's been a slow transition to Kad. There are still 172 servers when I just connected, and only recently have Kad search results exceeded the servers.


Kad search results and servers search results will vary depending on the file that you are looking for. I wouldn't base this idea above for any claim that kad is taking over even though kad is catching up. While yes kad is great, there are still many users that choose (for whatever reason such as client not supporting kad, etc) to just use servers. I would still say use kad and servers. Many files that have the only chunk of a file that is needed to complete are on ed2k and the same goes with kad.
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Re: Questions about eDonkey2000/Kad/eMule

Postby Andu » Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:41 pm

It's just tradition to call it the ed2k community. The eMule users were a small part of that community in the beginning and have turned out to be the majority. The community itself has only changed in size. Besides nobody really wants to bother with naming issues.
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Re: Questions about eDonkey2000/Kad/eMule

Postby SlyckTom » Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:52 pm

So in essence, the ED2K community is all about retention (thanks for the angle Andu). From what I can muster so far, this is the result of many things including the following:

1) Culture of the community - many of the file-sharers online today are the same that were on ED2K years ago. This helps keep files online for a longer period of time. Conversely, BitTorrent is a carousel of constantly shifting users.

2) Queuing system - each chunk of a file is queued independently. If there's a long wait for a large file, it's going to take quite some time for the file to reach its destination. While this is slow, it does help propagation since ED2K swarms files by nature.

3) Large collection of files - somewhat related to #1, the long-term duration of users has helped build up an incredible library of files. There's a lot of people sharing many files, so the retention becomes impressive. But this also slows things down as it builds the queue (but this too helps retention since it keeps people online longer).

I'm slowly piecing the logic (and the chapter) together :D....
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Re: Questions about eDonkey2000/Kad/eMule

Postby Ratt » Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:14 pm

Overnet User wrote:I still get 91% of users using ed2k/kad and kad only at 87%.


Does that mean 91% of the users are connected to a server while also being connected to Kad? Personally I find the first number hard to believe (but I could certainly be mistaken). The takedown of Razorback, for one thing, was covered even in the mainstream media.
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Re: Questions about eDonkey2000/Kad/eMule

Postby Andu » Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:46 pm

SlyckTom wrote:So in essence, the ED2K community is all about retention (thanks for the angle Andu). From what I can muster so far, this is the result of many things including the following:

1) Culture of the community - many of the file-sharers online today are the same that were on ED2K years ago. This helps keep files online for a longer period of time. Conversely, BitTorrent is a carousel of constantly shifting users.

2) Queuing system - each chunk of a file is queued independently. If there's a long wait for a large file, it's going to take quite some time for the file to reach its destination. While this is slow, it does help propagation since ED2K swarms files by nature.

3) Large collection of files - somewhat related to #1, the long-term duration of users has helped build up an incredible library of files. There's a lot of people sharing many files, so the retention becomes impressive. But this also slows things down as it builds the queue (but this too helps retention since it keeps people online longer).

I'm slowly piecing the logic (and the chapter) together :D....


In essence you are right. #2 you have the effect right but not the technical side. You queue for a file not a chunk. The remote client usually decides to only send you a single chunk. Sometimes this is different though. High bandwidth peers e.g. may decide to turn off the 1 chunk per transfer mechanism because otherwise their CPU usage becomes too high since slots are going to die and be opened all the time. Also iirc a connection is terminated after an hour.

No problem Tom. I might have used certain terminology to make it easier to understand for BT or Newsgroup users. Obviously some things are named differently within the community. Anyway if you have any other questions just hit us with em. I think there are enough people here glad to help you with your little project :).
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Re: Questions about eDonkey2000/Kad/eMule

Postby NocturnalVagabond » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:20 pm

SlyckTom wrote:while Kad basically mimics the eDonkey protocol in a decentralized environment.

Very small technicality, but if you're documenting eD2K, it's the small details that will usually get picked out.
Kad is an evolution of the old 'Overnet' protocol (evolution? extension? continued development? from the same basic algorithms?), while the eDonkey protocol is technically the server side of things.

I know, I know, pretty small detail :wink:
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Re: Questions about eDonkey2000/Kad/eMule

Postby Overnet User » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:25 pm

Ratt wrote:
Overnet User wrote:I still get 91% of users using ed2k/kad and kad only at 87%.


Does that mean 91% of the users are connected to a server while also being connected to Kad? Personally I find the first number hard to believe (but I could certainly be mistaken). The takedown of Razorback, for one thing, was covered even in the mainstream media.



This means servers (multiple servers spread) and not server which would be single. This is also dependent on your placement on the network (geographical location, blockage, time of day, day of week, etc). These numbers will fluctuate dependent on the above factors. At the time of my post, yes that was the case. There is no hard line way to say that at this time tomorrow, in 5 hours, or whatever, the numbers will be the same. There are over 30 "safe servers" and many rogue servers. Although Razorback2 was certainly the most popular server at the time, its the same whack a mole concept. Big servers get taken offline to be replace by other smaller servers spreading the users out instead of one server indexing so many clients at once. This is why it is important to have more than one or a few servers in your server list. Since most clients on the network are mules and (if I'm not mistaken) connecting to ed2k is already checked on most clients from first install or download of the client, this is part of the reason most clients use both i would presume other than the fact that they may want to access more files/sources than simply Kad. There are Kad bootstraps available also but usually from the first install of the client to start up, you need to connect to a server to find contacts so you can connect to Kad. I would assume that most people simply run both from the first install and let it be.

Tom this link may help you also: http://www.emule-project.net/home/perl/help.cgi?l=1&topic_id=232&rm=show_topic
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Re: Questions about eDonkey2000/Kad/eMule

Postby SlyckTom » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:57 am

Andu wrote:In essence you are right. #2 you have the effect right but not the technical side. You queue for a file not a chunk. The remote client usually decides to only send you a single chunk. Sometimes this is different though. High bandwidth peers e.g. may decide to turn off the 1 chunk per transfer mechanism because otherwise their CPU usage becomes too high since slots are going to die and be opened all the time. Also iirc a connection is terminated after an hour.

No problem Tom. I might have used certain terminology to make it easier to understand for BT or Newsgroup users. Obviously some things are named differently within the community. Anyway if you have any other questions just hit us with em. I think there are enough people here glad to help you with your little project :).


I see...what I was meant to explain was that each chunk of a requested file is queued independently. So if I wanted "A great movie" that had 10 chunks, the first segment would be queued up, downloaded....and chunk 2 would be queued later in the list (depending on how many other downloaders), followed by #3, etc.

The connection is terminated if the uploader hasn't initiated the upload? I've seen queues last for much longer than than an hour IIRC...unless you mean something different.
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Re: Questions about eDonkey2000/Kad/eMule

Postby SlyckTom » Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:01 am

NocturnalVagabond wrote:
SlyckTom wrote:while Kad basically mimics the eDonkey protocol in a decentralized environment.

Very small technicality, but if you're documenting eD2K, it's the small details that will usually get picked out.
Kad is an evolution of the old 'Overnet' protocol (evolution? extension? continued development? from the same basic algorithms?), while the eDonkey protocol is technically the server side of things.

I know, I know, pretty small detail :wink:


You're absolutely right...most of my time is spent reading, re-reading, then reading the manuscript again and scrutinizing every point and fact I bring up. Then it goes through the editorial process and scrutinized some more, the technically edited, then edited again.
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Re: Questions about eDonkey2000/Kad/eMule

Postby craftycorner » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:10 am

Get a clean server list and keep it clean.


How does one do this?
My God, its full of files!

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Re: Questions about eDonkey2000/Kad/eMule

Postby qm2003 » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:19 am

How does one do this?


"Get a clean server list"
This has been asked and answered many, many times, so i will just redirect you to the appropriate forum stickies:
http://forum.emule-project.net/index.ph ... pic=125858
http://forum.emule-project.net/index.ph ... pic=140560

"and keep it clean."
Repeat above part once or twice a month.
Revisit the stickies and the corresponent forum regularily for updates and current events.
If you are able to track back fake search result, spam and other annoyances to a certain server still on your list, report it in the already mentioned forum.
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Re: Questions about eDonkey2000/Kad/eMule

Postby SlyckTom » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:52 pm

Here's another question...I know this interview is a bit old, but the eMule developer brought up an interesting point about the difference between eDonkey and eMule:

eMule has been a very positive effect to the ED2K network. We have significantly reduced the amount of server traffic needed allowing servers to increase the number of users they can support. eDonkey was horrible at finding sources making rare files impossible to find. With Source Exchanges, eMule is able to find rare files with no problems. eMule utilizes UDP in situations that a TCP connection is overkill allowing the client to handle much more sources by reducing the overhead.


As I'm digging up information, I'm wondering if anyone could shed some light on ways eMule does/did use UDP where TCP is overkill?
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Re: Questions about eDonkey2000/Kad/eMule

Postby qm2003 » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:27 am

Wow, you ARE digging deep.
And no, you won't find me down there. :mrgreen:

In my opinion you are reaching a point where reinterviewing the current emule devs is a reasonable choice.
You know where they hang around ...
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