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Postby curzlgt » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:33 am

Personally, I can't agree with those that say hollywood hasn't been making good movies lately, or for years.... There have been pleanty of fine movies of late, both hollywood produced, and distributed. The thing is that there will always be far more crap than good. Its no different in the open content word, or any other market for that matter.

The other part is that taste in movies is a very subjective thing, and it will always be that way, just like every other market. One man flower, is another man weed.....

You know, I like alot of open content. In fact you two have introduce me to open content more than any other sources out there. :D And you both have my most humble thanks for that! Scratch is right, its a marketing problem. There are simply not enough easy to use, reliable, filters out there for the open content, one has to go looking for it. Whereas hollywood puts it in our faces everywhere we turn :roll:

Theres also the inherent human need to share culture. While you may be able to find several members here to discuss Elephant Dreams, Star Wrek, or even Scratche's lates mix, in the "real world" you are set adrift on an island, no one has seen those movies, and they don't play your music at the club, on the radio, you can't sing along and make fools of yourselves, you can't fire up the crowd at a kerioki night....... :(

Never fear though, open content is getting better every day, the quality, availbility, the cutural effect, the filters,all of it! Its just gonna take time.......
“The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long, plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side,” - Hunter S Thompson
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Postby soulxtc » Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:17 pm

Great story.....P2P needs some help
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Postby lubczyk » Sat Oct 14, 2006 4:08 pm

I have a 4 MB DOWN and 384 KB UP connection. That means I get download speeds of over 400 KB/s download speeds but only about 42 KB/s upload speeds. Considering where I live, it would take weeks to get a 1:1 ratio. I once seeded for three months after download about 4.2 gigabytes and still didn't have a 1:1 ratio. I don't know why.

The point is that poeple like me are willing to seed but due to the difference our Upload and Download speeds, it's almost impossible for people in my country to maintain a 1:1 ratio. I hear that Upload speeds are phenomenal in countries like Sweden, Japan, and Taiwan, but not in most other countries.

Until ISPs start providing comparative Upload and Download bandwidth, then most people don't have a choice but be leechers.
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Postby notbob » Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:59 pm

p2p works better as a closed society with rules. it keeps it small, which keeps the heat off, keeps the quality up, and keeps the rubes out. i like p2p more in small like minded groups than with a million leeches and 2 donors.

i think the article is hogwash, save for the part about money, as p2p should be free. I'm happy all the for profit systems are dead. open content is nice, but it is free for a reason--it's worthless. p2p isn't some high minded utopia of free society, it's about cheapskates like me getting shit for free. the only way it will survive is underground, like it has since the first bbs systems decades ago.
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Postby NocturnalVagabond » Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:58 pm

notbob wrote: it's about cheapskates like me getting shit for free.


LOL.
The new Slyck catch-cry...?

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Does have a nice poetic rhythm to it.
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Postby curzlgt » Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:28 pm

open content is nice, but it is free for a reason--it's worthless. p2p isn't some high minded utopia of free society, it's about cheapskates like me getting shit for free. the only way it will survive is underground, like it has since the first bbs systems decades ago.


I'm glad I don't live in your cynical, self centered, uncompromising world :roll:

What of those who use p2p to get content that is unavailable to them, content that isn't availabe to purchase? What about those who use it to get content that they would have the fair use to, often already paying to see it, if it wern't for their rights being steped on?

Whats "underground", and whats "surviving"? P2P is on the grow, free and open source are becoming the norm......

Thankfully, not everyone shares your sheep think.....
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Postby SlyckTom » Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:32 pm

cheapskates like me getting shit for free


I think I might be able to design an interview with notbob with this as the headline ;)
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Postby notbob » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:12 pm

curzlgt wrote:I'm glad I don't live in your cynical, self centered, uncompromising world :roll:

What of those who use p2p to get content that is unavailable to them, content that isn't availabe to purchase? What about those who use it to get content that they would have the fair use to, often already paying to see it, if it wern't for their rights being ste[p]ped on?


fair use is on its way out, and like every right, it can be given and taken away. not available for purchase? like it or not, if it was made after 1928, it's covered under the big "c", and any copies transferred are illegal copies. tv show not available in your area? p2p is convenient, but it doesn't make your copy somehow legit because you are "freeing it" from the intentions of the copyright holder

Whats "underground", and whats "surviving"? P2P is on the grow, free and open source are becoming the norm......
mass p2p is dead in the water, since anyone who markets a p2p to the masses is now considered as a contributor to infringement. open source is underground, and a viable alternative until the projects die of atrophy after their main programmers get real jobs

Thankfully, not everyone shares your sheep think.....

someday, you might look back at the crap you posted here, once you have a wife, kids, a mortgage, and laugh really hard at the idealistic dream world you are living in right now. money talks, idealists die poor and are forgotten
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Postby zappauk2003 » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:47 pm

IceCube wrote:There's two problems I see with Private BitTorrent sites that enforce share ratio's.

The first problem is that they are slow. They are NOT slow in the traditional, "Argh, I can't download this fast enough", they are slow in this sense, "Argh! It takes forever to keep my share ratio up!" And I know some of you are going, "Well, on a T1 Lime+ connection, it only takes a couple minutes and it's no big deal!" I think some people need to understand that just because you have a fast connection doesn't mean EVERYONE has a fast connection. I did try a private site and I know full well how long getting a good ratio takes on one. There's usually a couple of releasers on a really fast connection and when people who download from these swarms complete the file really quickly, then can't upload fast enough to anyone else who isn't done and now you have, say, 6 seeders with one at a ratio of 5.8 and the rest at 0.25. Then there's the occasional person that comes on and he gets a rediculously fast speed and now there's 7 seeds, one at 6.8, 5 at 0.3 and one at 0.0. Hypothetically, now the rediculously fast uploader leaves the swarm. How many more peers have to join in the swarm befor the current seeds reach the covetted 1.0? How long will it take on a slow swarm? Days? Weeks?

Second issue with private BitTorrent sites is that some people report having to download something they don't even want just to keep up their ratio. I think that is a serious problem with the system when users are put into such a situation. It reminds me of the Sony Rootkit, only private BT sites just screws up your browsing speed for days on end.


Fantastic post mate and sums up the whole situation perfectly.
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Postby curzlgt » Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:30 pm

fair use is on its way out, and like every right, it can be given and taken away.


On its way out perhaps, but not dead till the SCOTUS weighs in, and they have yet to take fair use away .....

not available for purchase? like it or not, if it was made after 1928, it's covered under the big "c", and any copies transferred are illegal copies.


Dah.....:roll: I'm just saying it's not "just about cheapskates like you getting shit for free." There are about as many reasons for people filesharing as there are people doing it. Not everyone shares your motivations or perceptions. If every one thought like you, we'd all still be in dark little caves, huddled in small groups, or on our own, grunting in frustratuion, and protecting ourselfs with big wooden clubs.....

tv show not available in your area? p2p is convenient, but it doesn't make your copy somehow legit because you are "freeing it" from the intentions of the copyright holder


Dah again :roll: However, as long as copying, timeshifting, and archiveing are allowed under Betamax, for personal use, I'll do so. Not saying that some of what I do to aquire content is always "legal" either. I really don't care that the DMCA treats digital content as something holyier than analog....content is content, fair use is fair use.

mass p2p is dead in the water, since anyone who markets a p2p to the masses is now considered as a contributor to infringement. open source is underground, and a viable alternative until the projects die of atrophy after their main programmers get real jobs


You don'd have to market to p2p users, they will find the means to their ends.....And what about Bram?

More of your usual.......cynical, pessimistic, unsupported opinion :roll: You got any evidence? anyone who matters in the real world who supports your perception? Or is this more of notbob's homegrown anecdotial observation?

someday, you might look back at the crap you posted here, once you have a wife, kids, a mortgage, and laugh really hard at the idealistic dream world you are living in right now.


I'm sure I will look back on some of the things I've said here and laugh as I age, I allow for that fact that life experience will change my perceptions of the world and my place in it. However, I will never let the weight of the world crush me or my realistic, balanced, informed view of it.

I suspect we are not far apart in age. I also suspect that you have been, and always will be a cynical pessimist. With a can't win, don't try attitude, and you always will be.......Have fun with that!

As for the rest of that, i've been providing for myself and my girlfriend, and preparing finantially for our, and our future family, for the last three years. In about 3 years I'll be married, most likely, will be buying my first house, with no mortgage thank you very much, and getting ready to have those kids. I'm alrady paing over 40% of my income out in taxes, and by then it could be closer to 50%, I just don't let it get me down :P

There is a great deal of difference between informed realism and idealism. But pessimistic cynics will always see the world through a depressing black and white prisim.......have fun with that!

money talks, idealists die poor and are forgotten


Money makes the world go round sure enough, and it can help make one's dream become a reality. but if its the main thing one strives for in life, I pity that person.

Idealists change the world, pessimistic cynics just whine about it

:P
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Postby notbob » Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:42 pm

a cynic is a realist who hasn't been proven right yet

an idealist will probably never be proven right

let's see the record so far--DRM still here and getting worse, DMCA still here and getting worse, EFF makes a lot of noise, but less than 1% of the population has ever heard of them, Napster, grokster, nmdc, winmx, limewire, edonkey, many many more--all dead, sony still uses rootkits, and bram cohen is an industry sock puppet.

prove me wrong
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Postby Drake » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:11 pm

notbob wrote:a cynic is a realist who hasn't been proven right yet


I think it's good to be a bit cynical but I don't think it's fair or even logical to imply that the EFF is useless. I think any sensible and informed person realizes the system is corrupt. Can anyone remember when it wasn't corrupt? But the existence of groups such as the EFF is necessary.

If no one puts up a fight then that will be the time when our rights will really be gone. I agree with you about Bram Cohen. He sold out. While I don't believe he was ever pro piracy, he used to speak out against the very people he now works with. To me, it's naive to think that he just changed. What changed is the amount of money in his bank account.

Also, your belief that P2P can only survive if it goes back to only existing in the "underground" doesn't make sense. It's out of the bag, you can't make millions of people forget about it. One way or another, people will find a way to share files and when tens of millions of people are doing it, it will remain in the mainstream.
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Postby curzlgt » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:17 pm

you go first :P

Perception is reality :!:

Have fun with your gloom and doom perspective......Does the sun ever shine into your cave? :P

As for Bram..... At least he is trying. His vision of near zero cost distribution of content to the sheep, and the reshaping of the content producers is a vision worthy of massive support. Instead we have to see labels of "sell out", "shill", and "sock puppet". :roll: Even though he realesed his "baby" open source, and it can live on and develope, even while he strives to alter the market to the benift of both the sheep and the artists......

Even if he fails in his efforts, and all commercial developers are litigated out of existance, filesharers will continue to get their shit for free because of Bram, and the neverending supply of unemployed programmers......

Ungratfule, shortsighted, fear mongering, it all that is...... :roll:

New ways of getting your shit for free appeare faster that old ones dissapear, prove otherwise.....

Filesharing numbers are on the rise, prove otherwise....

DRM awarneess and outrage continues to penetrate to more of the sheep every day, and the worse it gets, the faster and larger that outrage will be...... prove otherwise........

It really doesn't matter if the population has heard about the EFF, its the courts that matter. But in the long run its the artists waking up that will turn the tide.....and yes bob, the artists will wake up sooner or later. prove otherwise.....

bob, you have clearly givin up, you just need to accept that others have not, and that many never will, it'll save you alot of frustration. :wink:
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Postby notbob » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:42 pm

here's the deal.

all the drm/p2p/copyright/politics/blah blah blah are nothing. in the grand scheme of things, they are irrelevant. drama queens like to make it look like if you lose fair use/p2p dies/bush gets elected/planet is taken over by apes/internet explodes in a fiery ball/etc. the world will collapse on itself, it won't. i disappeared for months, becase i have an actual life, and as grim as any of the nonsense spouted by the EFF/bram cohen/slyck/cory doctorow/larry lessig sounds, the world isn't going to end, your brain will still work, and no amount of laws can ever take that away from you.

p2p can disappear, my stuff can burn in a fire, but i'll still have my brain and imagination, and hopefully my family, and it's all i need. free shit is cool and all, but life is a lot more interesting. real life interaction with real human beings is what matters. let the content providers lock everything up--in the end, it makes no real difference. it's all useless crap

you can think i'm a hateful, cynical pitiful cave dweller, i don't really care what you think, it means nothing. i know what i am, my kids know what i am, my wife knows what i am, and i know where my priorities lie. guess where they aren't? with a bunch of useless files on the internet of tv shows, movies, or flavor of the week cds. lock them up. pass laws. so what?
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Postby curzlgt » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:58 pm

:roll: ....... :lol:

Way to shift away from your arguments....... not like you.

Everything you said there is true. I just hope that you don't continue the pessimistic, cynical life view you espouse here around your real world family........but its your life and your family and your porogitive. I just hope you are aware of of how it can affect others, both here and in the "Real world".....you do have a powerful influence on others here, and I suspect in the RW too......

I like to let others form their perspective on their one, and mearly seek to expose the weakness of extream thought.....

Life is about balanceing......And I don't have kids yet, when that happens I'll prolly only post on average one time a day, and maybe submit 1 or 2 MFSN article a week, til then I'll keep having fun :P

Oh and Bram Rocks!......at least untill his actions in anyway actually harm filesharers.
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Postby IceCube » Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:14 am

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Postby zim » Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:22 am

notbob wrote:p2p isn't some high minded utopia of free society, it's about cheapskates like me getting shit for free.



I'll second that. I love free.
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Postby webe3 » Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:01 am

notbob wrote:a cynic is a realist who hasn't been proven right yet



More like.... someone like you that doesn't know when he is wrong.

notbob wrote:an idealist will probably never be proven right


Again wrong. Orville and Wilber wright were idealists until one day they put their ideas into practice and invented the airplane. If it were up to people like you, we would all probably be walking, because you would say it could not be done.

notbob wrote:let's see the record so far--DRM still here and getting worse, DMCA still here and getting worse, EFF makes a lot of noise, but less than 1% of the population has ever heard of them, Napster, grokster, nmdc, winmx, limewire, edonkey, many many more--all dead, sony still uses rootkits, and bram cohen is an industry sock puppet.

prove me wrong


1. Sorry but you blunder again. P2P is ALSO still here and not going anywhere and no DRM has been able to stop it. (negates your argument about DRM...everytime someting is "uncrackable" it gets cracked and distributed)

2.The DMCA means nothing when they cannot even stop the growing numbers of users and files on p2p....it is like the war on drugs...they make a good show, but have VERY LITTLE to show for it. (Again negates your DMCA comment)

3. The electronic frontier foundation has done a hell of a lot more than people like you, who only sit on their ass and complain. They have also introduced legislation into congress that fights DRM and it's restrictions. Do they have to be famous to be able to do that? NO! (Negates argument number 3)

Why don't YOU prove US wrong!? I can prove you wrong in two words! BIT TORRENT! ( the open scource apps that have NOTHING to do with the official client.... such as utorrent.)

As well as emule, Frostwire, newsgroups, IRC,etc....ALL of which are still around and perfectly functional TODAY, RIGHT NOW,(negates your argument that the authorities have shut everything down) but I guess you just want to sit and compalin.
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Postby foxkill » Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:35 am

zim wrote:
notbob wrote:p2p isn't some high minded utopia of free society, it's about cheapskates like me getting shit for free.



I'll second that. I love free.

+1 and I like notbob perception!
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Postby Ratt » Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:53 am

p2p isn't some high minded utopia of free society, it's about cheapskates like me getting shit for free.


I see no reason why it can't be both things at the same time. A medium that manages to represent different things to different groups of people is a medium that stands the test of time.
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Postby ShawnSpree » Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:58 am

Actually this shit story needs to be dumped. Here is the rules.
1. If you support file sharing, upload something or donate for servers use. What would slyck.com be without donations? Would it be wrong to donate to a filesharing site like this place?
2. I take what i get from usenet and upload to private bt sites. Or use anydvd to rip a UNTOUCHED 7.6 gig movie to upload it. Let others compress it to there standards or burn on dual layer.
3. Private sites dont have ads on alot of times, and if they did adpage blocker can block it. But they do require money for servers. And to make the site fast for all, they allow so many registered members so it doesnt slow down browsing. Donations arent mandatory, and arent required. If you want to do it, you can. After all your getting alot of free sh!t. But uploading files also support the sites. Says on the article not to pay, but paying for usenet is awesome. And that i can help other bt sites by what i find on there and that some people dont have access to or want to do usenet.
4. Most people wont get banned if they have less then .60 of a ratio. If you download and upload high enough, like 400 gigs downloaded, 385 gigs uploaded. You can pretty much leech without it destroying your ratio too much but its always good to seed.
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Postby SlyckScratch » Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:38 am

ShawnSpree wrote:What would slyck.com be without donations?

A couple of hundred dollars a year worse off?

I think you'll find that file-sharers have notoriously deep pockets accompanied by disproportionately short arms. Its in the genes.....
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Postby prisale » Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:57 am

ShawnSpree

Your two cents worth is right on. As I have already said in this forum everyone has a choice of using private or public trackers. I prefer private for the unequalled download speed I get. For others this is not important. If they so chose they then can use public trackers which are plentiful.
But don't bitch and moan about private trackers because of the rules they play by. I suggest maybe about a million people use private trackers within these rules without a problem. If someone does not like them go elsewhere. It’s that simple.
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Re: Low Upload Speeds

Postby Maestro120 » Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:22 am

lubczyk wrote:I have a 4 MB DOWN and 384 KB UP connection. That means I get download speeds of over 400 KB/s download speeds but only about 42 KB/s upload speeds. Considering where I live, it would take weeks to get a 1:1 ratio. I once seeded for three months after download about 4.2 gigabytes and still didn't have a 1:1 ratio. I don't know why.


I can't know for sure but I'm willing to bet you went for a 4.2 gig file that probably has been seeded for a while hence the number of seeders may have far outnumbered the leechers on that torrent. Thus naturally by the time you finished downloading there would be very few (if any) leechers left to download from you and therefore help to get your ratio back up. People with slow upload speeds like yourself (and me since I have 386 KBs upload as well) have to be very wary about jumping in on such a big file unless its at the beginning. If you're not among the first 5-10 leechers, don't bother.
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Postby MrFredPFL » Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:09 am

Ratt wrote:
p2p isn't some high minded utopia of free society, it's about cheapskates like me getting shit for free.


I see no reason why it can't be both things at the same time. A medium that manages to represent different things to different groups of people is a medium that stands the test of time.



damn, ratt, your post isn't nearly emotional enough, and makes way too much sense. are you sure you're in the right place? ;)
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