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Postby Myrak » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:07 am

Most private sites don't think of seeding in terms of days, more like weeks or months. At least the sites I've been in.

The key point I see, just looking at public v private sites, is that there is good results from enforcing ratios. There is so much new, good quality content that comes down at phenomenal speeds that you just can't get on public trackers. Yes, there are a few kinks when strictly enforcing ratios, and I believe there is a happy medium yet to be found (and implemented).

Leeching in small amounts CAN help the community. I reckon big private sites should have 'free leech weekends' a bit more often. It gives people a chance to discover new content without being penalised, and at the same time get their ratios back up since there will be more downloaders. (I haven't thought into it too deeply, but on the surface it seems like a good and generally harmless idea ^^;; )
It just shouldn't happen TOO often otherwise the community turns to (over)leeching (as opposed to over-seeding) and this is much worse.
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Postby webe3 » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:16 am

Myrak wrote:Most private sites don't think of seeding in terms of days, more like weeks or months. At least the sites I've been in.



Well I have never been on a private bt site uploading a torrent for more than a few days at a time! I maintian over a 1 to 1 ratio also.

I have yet to see them complain.

I could see you upping that long if you are going to be a superseed or something...but a regular uploader in a swarm?? Not really.
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Postby Myrak » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:33 am

Well it allows files to last a lot longer, which is a great advantage to private BT sites!
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Postby LaX » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:42 am

webe3 wrote:
LaX wrote:He's a moderator for one section, one that you'll never go into.



WHO are you adressing? me? Or someone else? I don't know what you are saying with the statement "a section you will never go into" if you are adressing me. If not and it is directed at someone else, forget what I said.

I'm assuming you won't be a slyck writer in the future
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Postby ceedee » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:55 am

So private trackers that are so popular that they routinely find it necessary to limit membership (through invite systems) are supposed to listen to the opinions of Bram, who's on friendly terms with both the MPAA and Hollywood with whom he's developing a closed-source, 'paid-delivery' system for DRM-protected material?

Yeah, right!
:)

(If the non-ratio public trackers were so wonderful, wouldn't the private, ratio-enforcing trackers cease to exist?)
Last edited by ceedee on Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby sonic1974 » Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:03 am

Ok my penny worth :D
I currently use 3 private trackers, however to maintain my ratio, I have had to become a primary uploader, of a file or as stated by many folk already, leave a file uploading for months on end!! i currently have a file that i have been uploading now for 8 weeks and have only just made the madatory 1:1 ratio, which is a pain, as its wasting valuable b/w and with 33 seeders and only 1 peer appering every now and again the ratio is gonna take years to go any higher, i agree that its good to give back but f the seed side outweighs the peers side you should not be abused for terminating the upload i think, IMO :twisted:

PS Sorry about spelling was in a rush when first typed
You say your how old????
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Postby SlyckScratch » Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:35 am

ceedee wrote:So private trackers that are so popular that they routinely find it necessary to limit membership (through invite systems)

My view is that invite systems aren't uniquely there to limit overall membership, rather to limit the influx of non-sharing users via an accountability system - i.e if you join via an invite and then don't share, the invitor will also be punished - ensuring that the invitor should take care over who he invites.

That said, anyone with sales experience will appreciate the importance of restricting supply, should one have a successful product or service that needs its perceived value increasing.....
I know what you're thinking, punk. You're thinking, 'Did he use six superfluous adjectives or only five?' To tell the truth I forgot myself in all this excitement - but as I deal in English, the most powerful language in the world with subtle nuances that may blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' Well do you punk?
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Postby Reggie p2p » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:32 am

excuse me but WTF does sales have to do with p2p??? You want to sell a product GET A WEBSITE and plug in ecommerce or use ebay. There aint no money in P2P unless ur a sellout like Shawn Fanning or Bram Cohen.
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Postby Reggie p2p » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:35 am

webe3 wrote:IF you leave your computer on for DAYS and still have a low ratio, then I would say that the mods ARE being unfair, because you made a good faith attempt at upping back your file. I do agree there. But if you downloaded a second tiny file that was popular and uploaded THAT back for days, your ratio would increase.

Like I said, there ARE other ways other than trying to seed back a file that is saturated with seeders already.


WHY are they being unfair just because no one is downliding from you??? The problem is that ppl always look for someone to blame. Why don't U look in the mirror webe3 if you want someone to blame for YOUR own ratio which only UR responsible for.
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Postby prisale » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:55 am

One of the most interesting topics I've ever seen on this site. To me the issue is relatively simple. If you want to see something within hours or less use a private tracker. If you can wait up to a week or so use a public tracker. As for ratios they are there for a purpose. If you just took and never gave back there soon would be very few seeders. To the extent you mays as well use a public tracker and wait your week.
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Postby JakolanteN » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:21 am

I really can't believe we are having this discussion. I thought most people here would have realised private trackers with ratios are really just a fact of life.

NocturnalVagabond wrote:Think of it this way - if someone comes along and downloads a file without putting anything back, tell me what the network has lost? Nothing. Its no different than if this person never existed.


No it certainly isn't. Pretend I am seeding a large file, on a relativly slow connection. I could upload to the leecher you described, who imediately deletes the file when he's finished OR I could upload to someone who will help seed for weeks. Which do you think is better for the overall health of the torrent?

Do you honestly beleive leeching is perfectly acceptable?
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Postby Fartingbob » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:36 am

SlyckScratch wrote:I believe that no-one (even a user with a bad ratio) should ever be asked to pay or be banned as long as they are TRYING to seed.

Intention is everything. No-one likes a free-loader.

I do think that private trackers should also monitor and display the total time that the person seeded the file. Because that is a great leveler. Doesnt matter how fast your conection is, you can upload for the same time as anybody else. Do any private trackers actually use time seeded as a factor?
Maybe a low ratio could trigger a mod to look and see how long they have seeded compared to download. Would be a much fairer system.

prisale wrote:If you want to see something within hours or less use a private tracker. If you can wait up to a week or so use a public tracker.

Its got alot better now. Generally if you can find it on private torrent sites, there will be at least 1 public tracker for it as well. I would say you shopuldnt have to wait more than a day or 2 for any new file on private trackers to hit public ones and get indexed on the popular sites.
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Postby prisale » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:48 am

Good point Fartingbob. The unspoken rule is a ratio of 1:1 and 36 hours of trying to achieve that. I have never been penalized when I have complied with this rule.
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Postby Maestro120 » Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:15 pm

Many Private sites (including the one I'm in) have a seeding policy where you either seed to a 1:1 ratio or for 72 hours, whichever one comes first.

I think the primary problem that many people have in keeping a good ratio on private sites is that they try to download everything at once, regardless of the age of the Torrent or how many seeders to leechers there are on that particular torrent.

It doesn't take much common sense to know that if you try to download a movie thats a week old and has like 8 seeders and ZERO leechers that, while your download speeds is gonna be blazing, your ratio is going to plumet as well since there is no one to leech from you. But for some reason when noobs luck out and manage to get into a private site, see all the zero day and exciting content not found anywhere else, they just go nuts and try to download every thing in sight. They eventually get banned for a 0.28 ratio and then come to Slyck.com bitching about the unfairness of private BT sites.
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Postby Dazzle » Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:45 pm

As with any P2P network there are leeches and just times when you can't tie up a connection for 3 weeks while others download parts of a rather large file for the next 3 weeks to equalise you ratios.

Anyone who is honest will admit to dropping at least one torrent before hitting the 1.1 - 1.5 mark, this is not to say that things should be set in stone forever for that one time either, flexibility is something the Cartels seem to have factored out and they lose by running everything so strictly, why should sharing be run along the same failed lines ?

A persistent leech is open season to most I,m sure, but in the scale of things they are not the majority user type of bit torrent, most users are well aware that they are expected to help the network by letting things roll over while others obtain the same benefit as themselves, I have yet to meet anyone who brags about leeching or owning a spoofing tool to avoid doing their bit.

Anyway to the point of my posting ..

I read Tom urging Piolet to make more of itself and I would have agreed a few weeks ago before I read up about the Network clients being mostly ones laden with spyware and using a proprietory protocol system that so far has alluded attempts to crack, also I read that Pablo is suffering from Muscular Dystrophy and that was one of the central reasons for his ceasing further work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablo_Soto

There was an effort to crack the protocol to make open src clients for the Manilito network but without vital info it has remained static for the last 2 years.

http://openlito.sourceforge.net/

These then are the reasons behind its static development.

Ok folks thats my threepence thrown in :P

Time to follow Toms last rule... Have fun :lol:
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Postby IceCube » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:18 pm

you make some really good points there Scratch. I'm only continuing a counterpoint side of the debate because I always wanted a good clean intelligent and civil debate over this issue.

SlyckScratch wrote:Bram makes a protocol which enforces a level of sharing and everyone hails him as a hero yet when others try to enhance this feature, complaints ensue.....


I do think that it can be telling of some people who complain about its enforcement, but I think some of the complaints are founded on a certain basis. I'll use an example to highlight what I mean by this:

I'm driving a car. I'm driving the speedlimit on a highway. I realise I'm late for work and I have to step on it a little to make it there on time. I only step on it a little while and no cop pulls me over. I'm on time for work and I don't get into trouble. That would be a public site in my POV.

In a private site, I'm driving along the same highway going at the speed limit. Again, I realise that I'm running late for work. I choose to step on it and the moment my speed needle even goes over the marked speed limit, a device kills my engine. Doesn't matter if I wasn't actually paying attention or not, I'm punished anyway. Those notorious private sites are like where sometimes the device kills the engine even if you didn't go over.

There is that happy medium where it's more like, watch your speed and you could get pulled over if you continually speed. That is what I see an ideal site would be like.

The point is, having that constant enforcement looming over you can be really irritating. You don't have to be a hit and runner to be annoyed by it by any means.

SlyckScratch wrote:Ratios mean nothing until they are enforced - i.e the action taken to punish the user with a poor ratio - usually banning or the option to pay to repair the ratio. Paying is a no-no whereas banning can be harsh, especially when someone has tried and failed to repair their ratio.

I believe that no-one (even a user with a bad ratio) should ever be asked to pay or be banned as long as they are TRYING to seed.

Intention is everything. No-one likes a free-loader.


I do agree to that. Intention is a key aspect to seperating the free-loaders from the honest user.


Here's another point. BitTorrent, by it's nature, is meant to be temporary. It's not designed to be like the eDonkey2000 network where the retention is practically indefinit. If you look at the early days prior to private sites, the swarms were around for a few days delivering top notch speeds to users who got on fast enough. The swarm dies after a while and users have to find alternate sources to get what they want. I kinda viewed private sites as a means to try and alter the sort of nature to extend the retention. The side effect is that the BitTorrent community becomes segmented meaning fewer users have access to that same swarm. By segmenting the community, it undermines the whole aspect of an open P2P network and restricting user access to those who are members of certain sites. By doing so, does it kind of runs counter to the nature of a non-restrictive traditional P2P environment?
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Postby prisale » Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:57 pm

I think this subject can be flogged to death with never having a meeting of the minds. And that's the way it should be when discussing something millions of people use daily. The important thing is that one does have a choice and can use whatever meets one's needs best in terms of results and comfort level. For me that's using a private tracker. For others it's using a public tracker. The pros and cons for each have been enumerated here so many times that I don't know if there is very much more to be said on the subject.
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Postby deadman » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:56 pm

I use public trackers where I can. If the file is only on a private tracker site and I really want it I will use it and then seed as much as I can. Being used to eMule though I am not in a hurry to download everything so if it takes a day or 2 to get from a public tracker where it might take a couple of hours from a provate tracker. I'll plump for the public tracker everytime. Just think about it for a second. Do you really need that file RIGHT now?

Most you don't.

I understand that community spirit that private trackers try to generate but honestly. Do you really care about some dude with a weird nick you have never met or are liekly to meet more than once in a fleeting msg on a msg board?

Quite.
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Postby webe3 » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:11 pm

Reggie p2p wrote:WHY are they being unfair just because no one is downliding from you??? The problem is that ppl always look for someone to blame. Why don't U look in the mirror webe3 if you want someone to blame for YOUR own ratio which only UR responsible for.


I was the one sticking UP for ratio demands by private BT sites, but because you can't READ, you didn't understand what I was saying....

I SAID that I thought it was unfair if a person left his computer on for DAYS AT A TIME and TRIED (do you understand that word? tried? Go look it up in the dictionary if you don't) to make a good faith attempt at upping back a file he or she downloaded....THEN I said that a lot of private site mods WILL understand if a file is saturated with seeders and you do at least try to up back the file for days! And if they did not..... THAT is what I thought was unfair, get your facts straight.

I also sugessted a way he could get back his ratio by upping a smaller seed that people wanted and leaving that on and YOU come on and act like I was not for seeding.

It is NOT a persons fault if a file is saturated with seeders and they cannot up it back , but they CAN give back to the community in other ways!

It is a persons responsibility to give back SOMETHING to the private BT community they download from, but to say that a pereson HAS to just make that particular torrent he downloaded work is stupid.

They may not be able to up the torrent they downloaded as quickly as they could other torrents that are more popular and they would still contribute to the community.... and if they up back the same amount WHO CARES????
Last edited by webe3 on Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby webe3 » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:22 pm

deadman wrote:I use public trackers where I can. If the file is only on a private tracker site and I really want it I will use it and then seed as much as I can. Being used to eMule though I am not in a hurry to download everything so if it takes a day or 2 to get from a public tracker where it might take a couple of hours from a provate tracker. I'll plump for the public tracker everytime. Just think about it for a second. Do you really need that file RIGHT now?

Most you don't.

I understand that community spirit that private trackers try to generate but honestly. Do you really care about some dude with a weird nick you have never met or are liekly to meet more than once in a fleeting msg on a msg board?

Quite.



So because I don't need a file right now I stick with a crappy download speed on a public site when I could get it faster on a private site? Sorry, that makes absoultely no sense to me!

Different strokes....
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Postby IceCube » Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:25 pm

I'm wondering now. If someone is so inclined on getting a movie right away, why not just stream it instead? It doesn't require downloading the whole thing first.
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Postby FURCUE » Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:35 am

IceCube wrote:I'm wondering now. If someone is so inclined on getting a movie right away, why not just stream it instead? It doesn't require downloading the whole thing first.


only takes me 15 mins to d/l a movie on a decent site
much rather d/l any day than a crappy quality stream
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Postby SlyckScratch » Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:54 am

IceCube wrote:I'm wondering now. If someone is so inclined on getting a movie right away, why not just stream it instead?


Slyck's Top 10 Streaming Movie Sites

10. :?
9. :?
8. :?
7. etc etc

I think the answer to your question might be 'availability'
I know what you're thinking, punk. You're thinking, 'Did he use six superfluous adjectives or only five?' To tell the truth I forgot myself in all this excitement - but as I deal in English, the most powerful language in the world with subtle nuances that may blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' Well do you punk?
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Postby IceCube » Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:13 am

Yeah, that might be true, though there seems to be development on a P2P streaming technology (I can't place specifics at the moment).

I also have to admit that I am also on the eDonkey2000 ideology of, 'I don't actually need that movie JUST THIS SECOND' way of thinking. Whenever I get it is great - though I fail to recall when the last time I've actually downloaded a movie. Perhapse I personally don't bother watching the latest Holleywood Blockdumpster movies (sorry for the lame attempt at being satiricle) these days. Maybe this is just cynacle of me, but there hasn't been anything I've seen in previews that strike me as worth watching in months... maybe even years. But not thinking I need things right away, is this just an aspect of a laid back personality or something? Or is it just that I'm a person who doesn't see the thrill of three digit figures in the download column anymore?

What I do notice is that there's a lot of focus on the remarks of private BT sites (both for and against) The article touches on a lot of stuff. One thing I have (and probably some tire of it by now) been personally interested in is the open content thing. Why is there such a massive seemingly untouched goldmine of open/free music out there? I know I personally can find an endless supply of unique and great music out there that has NOTHING to do with the mainstream copyrighted content. Is it just the name recognition that keeps people away from the content? More specifically, is it the absense of that "Metallica" sound or "MegaDeath" name never really somewhere along the line? I know some people complain about the quality of music these days. I'll also admit that this was the only part of the article I actually assisted in.
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Postby SlyckScratch » Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:14 am

IceCube wrote:I know I personally can find an endless supply of unique and great music out there that has NOTHING to do with the mainstream copyrighted content. Is it just the name recognition that keeps people away from the content?

The free music brigade aren't very good at marketing so most of it goes unnoticed - this is where the RIAA and their kind come into their own. Additionally, a lot of people probably get a kick out of getting something for free - as long as it shouldn't be free....genuinely free stuff tends to lose its cool amongst some people.

Thats why when you're giving away music and trying to get people to download it, its prudent to parcel it up like a scene release - NFO's, SFV's, et al. They fly off the shelf then ;)
I know what you're thinking, punk. You're thinking, 'Did he use six superfluous adjectives or only five?' To tell the truth I forgot myself in all this excitement - but as I deal in English, the most powerful language in the world with subtle nuances that may blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' Well do you punk?
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