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Postby IceCube » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:37 pm

carcassfan wrote:you should not be feeding into this type of argument icecube. :idea:


Fair nuff, I'll leave em alone now.
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Postby Reggie p2p » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:43 pm

carcassfan wrote:
I dont know why that makes me laugh. :lol:

try this 1: STFU!!!


Someone didn't read the rules before posting

7) No flaming, name calling, or general lamership. If someone is verbally abusive towards you, be an adult and ignore the other person. This is not real life, and all the name calling in the world will not settle your argument.


Ur lucky cuz if what u said to me was allowed i would have torn you a new one.
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Postby Fartingbob » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:46 pm

Reggie p2p wrote:he's moderator??? THAT'S outrageous! Well if he's like haddock my acct will be disable. Fartinbob knows the story.

Mods here tend to be a bit more logical than those at filelist thankfully.

Anyway, back on topic, as for tom's point about blubster having a very good communtiy around it, i dont think that sort of community expands well. No major client/network has a chat or community asepct at the core of its strategy. People usually jsut want the files and go. I think forums and web based chat rooms are a much more likely thing to encoruage community. And usually the good forums are not on the official site, but instead run by fans elsewhere.


EDIT:
Reggie wrote:Ur lucky cuz if what u said to me was allowed i would have torn you a new one.

Umm, i dont think carcass is the guy you tear a new one for. He's a man of wisdom and good insults.
Last edited by Fartingbob on Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Reggie p2p » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:49 pm

soulseek has chat built in and has more community feel than blubster. problem is if THAT is what u want u will be most vulnerable. The goal is not complete community experience its finding the right balance between community and security so proceed with caution.
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Postby Fartingbob » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:54 pm

Reggie p2p wrote:soulseek has chat built in and has more community feel than blubster. problem is if THAT is what u want u will be most vulnerable. The goal is not complete community experience its finding the right balance between community and security so proceed with caution.

Thats a good point, the more in built community you have, the more security and anonymity can be an issue, since everyone likes to be as anonymous as they can when getting the usual files from P2P.
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Postby Reggie p2p » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:04 pm

Fartingbob wrote:Umm, i dont think carcass is the guy you tear a new one for. He's a man of wisdom and good insults.


I'll give him the benefit of the doubt since ur vouching for him but he's shown himself to be a rule breaker and if it WAS a free4all i would let him have it.
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Postby Reggie p2p » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:09 pm

yo sorry i didn't read this before or else i would have replied. i dont know how i missed it.

IceCube wrote:
Can you honestly tell me how I'm incorrect? Maybe I need to elaborate on this argument:

Sony Rootkit: Forces something on to your system that you don't want and degrades your system

Private BitTorrent site: Forces something on to your system that you don't want and degrades your browsing speed (you're bandwidth is going somewhere and it's not going to loading webpages)


You have no control over the slowdowns rootkits cause. torrent clients let u adjust bandwidth. It is not forced YOU choose.

IceCube wrote:I've already said that the private site isn't as bad, but the problems have their similarities.

Sure, you can say I'm out of line, can you tell me how I'm out of line?


ok ur at least half reasonable by sayin they ain't as bad but you're still out of line by pressing the unjust comparison to malware. i hope i have expounded on the details enough.
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Postby NocturnalVagabond » Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:04 pm

I'm afraid I have to agree with dumping the ratios.

Think of it this way - if someone comes along and downloads a file without putting anything back, tell me what the network has lost? Nothing. Its no different than if this person never existed.

There will always be three types of filesharers - those who take, those who share, and those who do both.
As someone who has shared a shitload of files on more networks than a lot of the BT noobs could ever name, I couldn't care less if someone wants to download from me, whether they give me anything back or not.
This sort of mentality verges on file-trading - something true file-sharers find offensive.

Anyone else who's been around long enough to remember digging FTP for mp3s will remember the asshole ratios they used. And didn't these sites last after Napster came along.....
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Postby curzlgt » Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:06 am

well said Tom :)

I've have never used a private tracker, and prolly never will. For me it has nothing to do with ratio enforcment though. I dislike the private nature of the whole thing. For me filesharing is about the free exchange of information and culture, with as equal access for all as is possible.

I have to say that I was largly unaware about the ratio issues. Now I have even more reason to avoid them. It also occures to me that those who don't cheat, stay on constant gaurd or getting in eairly on a torrent, or result to other loopolls to reach their ratio, are opening themselves to litigation to an inequitable degree......

Lastly, who ever said that MODs here are unable to have an opinion? If that were the case Fred posts would be 95% spam, instead of the current 50% :P jk!

Speak your mind Ice, and always take pride in your ability to maintain an objectivite opinion and avoid polarized mania. That said, imo, it is best to keep your opinion out of your own artice threads......I remember a former writer here who didn't pratice that, and as a result his inherant bias usually overshadowed his attemps at objectivity.
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Postby MrFredPFL » Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:23 am

:lol:

me - opinionated? shirley, you jest :P
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Postby terryb » Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:57 am

if you think the world of file sharing is getting boring and slow, you're not looking in the right places. the world is just concentrating into fields of interest based on type of content or local origin. there's plenty going on and plenty of development. it's just coming from sources that slyck dont cover.

Well at least we didn't have the whole history of p2p prefixing the article!


amen.
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Postby Dormant707 » Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:58 am

Tom, as you said, p2p news is really slow nowadays. It will need another pirate bay bust to get Slyck busy again I reckon!

I am strongly opposed to ratios myself. I have used BT for a good number of years and I always ensure 1:1 - no less than that, no more than that. Yes, there are a high number of leechers out there, and there always will be. But, ratios enforcing is missing the point of BT - you will always upload as you download.

Private tracker sites are contrary to what p2p is all about, and the elitist attitudes of private trackers is what has always put me off private tracker sites.
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Postby herk » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:01 am

SOLD OUT!!
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Postby Dormant707 » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:07 am

curzlgt wrote:I remember a former writer here who didn't pratice that, and as a result his inherant bias usually overshadowed his attemps at objectivity.


8)
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Postby curzlgt » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:13 am

MrFredPFL wrote::lol:

me - opinionated? shirley, you jest :P


Don't Call Me Shirley.........Fred, do you like movies about gladiators? :P
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Postby IceCube » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:30 am

Reggie p2p wrote:yo sorry i didn't read this before or else i would have replied. i dont know how i missed it.

IceCube wrote:
Can you honestly tell me how I'm incorrect? Maybe I need to elaborate on this argument:

Sony Rootkit: Forces something on to your system that you don't want and degrades your system

Private BitTorrent site: Forces something on to your system that you don't want and degrades your browsing speed (you're bandwidth is going somewhere and it's not going to loading webpages)


You have no control over the slowdowns rootkits cause. torrent clients let u adjust bandwidth. It is not forced YOU choose.


That's actually true, you can definitely cap your bandwidth. That would certainly solve a slow browsing speed problem.

When private sites first came around, I know there was a very good explanation that the seeders are actively waiting for a customer (downloader)

The problem with that for a simple broadband connection is that you would therefor limit yourself further to getting that 1.0 ratio. So I suppose by that logic, would you say that it's much more of a finding that 'happy medium' between the two to try and keep that ratio up to 1.0?

Cause that would make sense to me actually. My own personal opinion asside on these things of course.
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Postby SlyckScratch » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:37 am

Bram makes a protocol which enforces a level of sharing and everyone hails him as a hero yet when others try to enhance this feature, complaints ensue.....

Ratios mean nothing until they are enforced - i.e the action taken to punish the user with a poor ratio - usually banning or the option to pay to repair the ratio. Paying is a no-no whereas banning can be harsh, especially when someone has tried and failed to repair their ratio.

I believe that no-one (even a user with a bad ratio) should ever be asked to pay or be banned as long as they are TRYING to seed.

Intention is everything. No-one likes a free-loader.
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Postby Dormant707 » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:39 am

SlyckScratch wrote:Bram makes a protocol which enforces a level of sharing and everyone hails him as a hero yet when others try to enhance this feature, complaints ensue.....

Ratios mean nothing until they are enforced - i.e the action taken to punish the user with a poor ratio - usually banning or the option to pay to repair the ratio. Paying is a no-no whereas banning can be harsh, especially when someone has tried and failed to repair their ratio.

I believe that no-one (even a user with a bad ratio) should ever be asked to pay or be banned as long as they are TRYING to seed.

Intention is everything. No-one likes a free-loader.


Wise words from the Scratch-meister...
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Postby webe3 » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:04 am

Fartingbob wrote:
webe3 wrote:If it were not for those ratios, most would choose not to seed.

Cheaters allow everyone to up their ratio on private trackers, if it wasnt for leechers and cheaters, it would be impossible to gain a high ratio unless your a releaser, because the trackers total ratio will always be 1:1. Private trackers depend on leeching.


Sorry, I don't agree. If cheating made everyone's ratios go up, then everyone would chaet and there would be NO FILES to download.

Just because a ratio cheat gives you a higher slot does not mean that most that use it will do the right thing and upload back! Most will just use it to leech. And that is not good for the private BT site in question.
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Postby webe3 » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:10 am

Reggie p2p wrote:AGAIN WITH THE NEWSGROUPS! This article aint about newsgroups! If you love LEECHING newsgroups write a story about it and how you get stuff fast without ratio!


Get off my case! I posted about the newsgroups in relation to what I said. Learn to READ before you flame!




Reggie p2p wrote:I play by the rules! Who are you to call me an idiot jest because I have a low ratio on ScT?? Who?? Tell me because I want to know. You have some nerve calling me names. I seed files over night sometime and still get low ratio. Hey read the text that was written about how to improve ratio sites before calling names!!!



You don't need a "ratio cheat" to up your ratio, there ARE other ways if you are not too lazy to do it...such as find a torrent that is small that most like and up that for days.

And who are YOU to judge ME? If you leave your computer on for days trying to seed something.... that is NOT what I am talking about, learn to read what I say BEFORE you flame!

I am saying that people that use that ratio cheat just to "download and run" are the idiots! But regardless, you don't NEED a ratio cheat just to keep up a decent ratio and if you get banned by them discovering you, then that is fine by me!

But you seem to want to make stupid lame excuses for your behavior and then justify it by attacking me! Again, get off my case!
Last edited by webe3 on Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby webe3 » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:18 am

IceCube wrote:There's two problems I see with Private BitTorrent sites that enforce share ratio's.

The first problem is that they are slow. They are NOT slow in the traditional, "Argh, I can't download this fast enough", they are slow in this sense, "Argh! It takes forever to keep my share ratio up!" And I know some of you are going, "Well, on a T1 Lime+ connection, it only takes a couple minutes and it's no big deal!" I think some people need to understand that just because you have a fast connection doesn't mean EVERYONE has a fast connection. I did try a private site and I know full well how long getting a good ratio takes on one. There's usually a couple of releasers on a really fast connection and when people who download from these swarms complete the file really quickly, then can't upload fast enough to anyone else who isn't done and now you have, say, 6 seeders with one at a ratio of 5.8 and the rest at 0.25. Then there's the occasional person that comes on and he gets a rediculously fast speed and now there's 7 seeds, one at 6.8, 5 at 0.3 and one at 0.0. Hypothetically, now the rediculously fast uploader leaves the swarm. How many more peers have to join in the swarm befor the current seeds reach the covetted 1.0? How long will it take on a slow swarm? Days? Weeks?

Second issue with private BitTorrent sites is that some people report having to download something they don't even want just to keep up their ratio. I think that is a serious problem with the system when users are put into such a situation. It reminds me of the Sony Rootkit, only private BT sites just screws up your browsing speed for days on end.


Even IF you are on a slow connection....you are saying that you can't upload and just leave your computer on?? I do it all the time with emule, if I want to give something back to the community after I have taken something. Really there is no excuse for just taking something and then not even sharing anything else.

As I said, if everyone did that, then the speeds on private sites would SUCK! Compare the speeds on a public site like mininova and a private site like torrentleech and torrentleech will usually blow public sites out of the water! That is why most want IN on a private site that has good speeds in the first place. Just saying you have a slow connection is not really an excuse.


On private sites on your second point....you COULD download something small..such as the latest nero to keep up your ratio and just seed that. YTou don't have to download and seed back a 4.5 GB DVD just to keep a decent ratio.
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Postby webe3 » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:23 am

IceCube wrote:
Reggie p2p wrote:
IceCube wrote:Second issue with private BitTorrent sites is that some people report having to download something they don't even want just to keep up their ratio. I think that is a serious problem with the system when users are put into such a situation. It reminds me of the Sony Rootkit, only private BT sites just screws up your browsing speed for days on end.


One word. UNBELIEVABLE!! Comparing a private BT site to a sony rootkit! Outrageous further you accuse them of screwing up browsing speed days at a time. Sorry but ur out of line.


Can you honestly tell me how I'm incorrect? Maybe I need to elaborate on this argument:

Sony Rootkit: Forces something on to your system that you don't want and degrades your system

Private BitTorrent site: Forces something on to your system that you don't want and degrades your browsing speed (you're bandwidth is going somewhere and it's not going to loading webpages)

I've already said that the private site isn't as bad, but the problems have their similarities.

Sure, you can say I'm out of line, can you tell me how I'm out of line?



Tell me exactly HOW getting on a private BT site is "forcing" you to download anything? The only rule most private BT sites have is to give as much as you take.

If you are willing to download the file, why then are you saying that someone else should not be able to download the file at the same incredible speed you did? The only way to ensure this is to make sure that every member contributes something to the site.

Again, if everyone did not contribute SOMETHING to a private site, the speeds would suck as bad as they do aon public sites that have multiple leechers and ONE seeder. If you have ever tried to download a torrent from a public site, you would know what I mean.
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Postby webe3 » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:28 am

Fartingbob wrote:
Reggie p2p wrote:One word. UNBELIEVABLE!! Comparing a private BT site to a sony rootkit! Outrageous further you accuse them of screwing up browsing speed days at a time. Sorry but ur out of line.

Lol, i agree with cube on this one. It can be very difficult for people on standard upload speeds to get a positive ratio, it can be frustrating to see you leave your file uploading for days and then see your still at 0.4 ratio because several uploaders can supply 20 users leaving you uploading at 1Kbps.
Like sony rootkits. Annoying.
I used to belong to filelist, but i got banned for saying that the moderators were being unfair on other users. I kind of lost faith in private trackers at that point.



IF you leave your computer on for DAYS and still have a low ratio, then I would say that the mods ARE being unfair, because you made a good faith attempt at upping back your file. I do agree there. But if you downloaded a second tiny file that was popular and uploaded THAT back for days, your ratio would increase.

Like I said, there ARE other ways other than trying to seed back a file that is saturated with seeders already.
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Postby LaX » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:45 am

He's a moderator for one section, one that you'll never go into.

To be fair, there are a few private trackers that reward the time spent on seeding as well, so it's not all lost for the people on dial-up. But cube does have a point; it does take quite a while to upload back to the community.

Damn I'm a slow typer. I'm guessing Tom wrote this article for this very debate. He's probably chuckling at us right now :wink:
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Postby webe3 » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:02 am

LaX wrote:He's a moderator for one section, one that you'll never go into.



WHO are you adressing? me? Or someone else? I don't know what you are saying with the statement "a section you will never go into" if you are adressing me. If not and it is directed at someone else, forget what I said.
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