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Illegal downloaders 'face UK ban'

Postby azitler » Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:29 am

Story : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7240234.stm

People in the UK who go online and illegally download music and films may have their internet access cut under plans the government is considering.
A draft consultation Green Paper suggests internet service providers would be required to take action over users who access pirated material.

Under a "three strikes" rule they would receive an e-mail warning, suspension, and then termination of their contract.

Six million people a year are estimated to download files illegally in the UK.


There have been hints that this might happen but this is the first time we have had confirmation that the govnt is actively going after this.

Personally, I view the internet as a utility in much the same way as I see phones, electric, water and gas and so the thought that they can take it away because of the dodgy claims of some media company stooge is totally wrong. You only have to look at the Davenport Lyons threads here on Slyck of people being persecuted for downloading programs they have no knowledge of to see that there will be more than a few innocent people cut off from the net if this plan goes ahead.

Just goes to show what a hold the media companies have over our governments that they can demand this kind of draconian action when they, and they alone, are suffering.
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Re: Illegal downloaders 'face UK ban'

Postby Rummy » Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:48 am

I think it's quite extreme, never expected it over here and didn't see it coming(though I don't keep up much with the news). To what extent will it stretch? What'll count and what won't?? How will they tell? Are our ISPs gonna be inspecting everything we do? I also think it'll lose some money, I can see some people who download copiously downgrading their connection to save some money, seeing as their downloading will be restricted.
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Re: Illegal downloaders 'face UK ban'

Postby cddvdheaven123 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:57 am

I cant see this working with the amount of now legal to download movies, music and TV how are they to know what is a legal download to an illegal download without monitoring every user all the time and every packet sent to be checked out by the isp !!!!
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Re: Illegal downloaders 'face UK ban'

Postby bearsue1 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:00 am

well i can see a few companys going under if they follow through with that law ,because as far i can see
at least 99% of the uk has downloaded something,once in there life time of using the net .my dear old gran even uses p2p and torrents(as a lot of what she likes to listen to these days has long since been delated and the only place she can find her gldin oldies is on the net.... and shes in her 80s :D
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Re: Illegal downloaders 'face UK ban'

Postby Lee1001 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:07 am

This is the same system introduced here last month,following is from todays Time's.

Users suspected of wrongly downloading films or music will receive a warning e-mail for the first offence, a suspension for the second infringement and the termination of their internet contract if caught a third time, under the most likely option to emerge from discussions about the new law.

What's actually wrong with it,is that you can not be"punished"if you're a suspect,you must be proven guilty,this is were it will fail.
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Re: Illegal downloaders 'face UK ban'

Postby ..Ñøßߥ.. » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:35 am

I cannot see how this is in anyway workable, or technically even possible, how will they tell the difference between downloading copyrighted files, and non, i see no way to acheive this, the ISP's will realise very quickly policing the content of their customers files is not possible
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Re: Illegal downloaders 'face UK ban'

Postby Rummy » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:51 am

Well that's the thing, for them to be able to do this, I'd imagine it has to be pretty deep/detailed watching, which then makes me think of privacy issues and whatnot.
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Re: Illegal downloaders 'face UK ban'

Postby markTopsecret » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:35 am

I suspect this is a case of Government flying a kite - which they do quite often. They announce an idea simply to see the reaction - the amount of opposition and the workability of the idea. Will there be votes in it? Or if not will there be directorships, donations or other benefits?

The amount of work ISP's would be called upon to do is mind-boggling. Presumably not only monitor all content for piracy - but also for illegal porn, seditious material, crime conspiracies, suicide pacts - you name it.

And would this seek to establish a legal principle that ISP's were responsible for all content that passes across their networks? And what would be the sanctions upon them if they failed to obliterate all such content?

If I was an ISP I would not like being given an impossible job like this. And if I was compelled to act as censor and get rid of sizeable proportion of my customers, I'd be taking up an alternative line of work.
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Re: Illegal downloaders 'face UK ban'

Postby azitler » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:54 am

I believe that the proposal is not that ISP's should monitor all traffic on their networks, but rather when a media company lackey like Media Sentry or Logistep reports to them that they have spotted an IP address uploading/downloading something they shouldn't be then the ISP is obiligated to first warn, then suspend and then terminate that customer.

This of course presupposes that:

A. The technology that Logistep et al are using is infallible.

and

B. Logistep et al are themselves are infallible.

As those customers currently being pursued by Davenport Lyons for allegedly downloading 3d Pinball, Colin McRae Dirt and now Call of Juarez have discovered,

this is definitely not the case. We are still waiting to see whether any of those people who deny that they have downloaded/uploaded these games will be taken to court, but the holes in the technical 'evidence' that has been held against them means that the outcome is far from certain.

What does seem incredible is that the UK govnt seems prepared to consider giving media companies the ability to disconnect someone from the internet based on 'evidence' that has yet to be supported by single court case and has in fact been discredited in several other European countries.

In effect, they are giving these companies carte blanche to deprive people of something that has, for most people, become essential to everyday life simply on their say so, and that simply cannot be either fair or just.

This all serves as simply an other illustration as to who it is who actually runs our supposed 'democracies'.
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Re: Illegal downloaders 'face UK ban'

Postby Lee1001 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:19 am

Far more dangerous is what some here in France are proposing,I listened to a discussion here on local radio,where the music industry wants the internet supplier to add pre-arranged charges,for all illegal downloads, to the monthly bill,here we pay by direct debit so the money is automatically paid,this is not a good idea.
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Re: Illegal downloaders 'face UK ban'

Postby Rummy » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:25 am

According to the Times Article, four major ISPs(BT, Tiscali, Organge and VirginMedia) have already been in talks with a major Hollywood studio/distributor about this 'voluntary scheme'. It doesn't say who, but I feel like guessing at Universal, even so, it doesn't say HOW it'll all be done, I think it's most likely to be through means such as suggested by azitler, thus the ISPs won't mind as they don't have to do any much extra work. I'm guessing they aren't likely to tell us how they'll do it, arguing if they did then people'd be able to circumvent it etc etc.
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Re: Illegal downloaders 'face UK ban'

Postby Rummy » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:28 am

Lee1001 wrote:Far more dangerous is what some here in France are proposing,I listened to a discussion here on local radio,where the music industry wants the internet supplier to add pre-arranged charges,for all illegal downloads, to the monthly bill,here we pay by direct debit so the money is automatically paid,this is not a good idea.

That's just...wow. I'm pretty sure that'll be unenforceable/illegal unless the ISPs put in place fair safeguards/warnings to their customers that what they do/are about to do could be illegal, which'll be a feat in itself. I understand some of the more naive internet users download things illegally and don't even realise.
Another point it'd make me think of, is what if you use software/tools to rip something not otherwise available? Such as the audio from an official youtube video, or from an artist's site, where will that put you? I mean, it's not really an issue in comparison, but it just crossed my mind.

EDIT: I'm not sure how far this actually is gonna stretch, whether it's mainly about films or will include ALL illegally downloaded content such as music, in which case my latter point is even less related.
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Re: Illegal downloaders 'face UK ban'

Postby Lee1001 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:34 am

Crossed my mind to,what was said is that they'll be soon be able to do a monthly printout on ones account showing uploads and downloads,if they were able to do that,what can we do?
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Re: Illegal downloaders 'face UK ban'

Postby Fartingbob » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:16 am

It was on BBC news (TV) earlier, and it annoyed the hell out of me. They clearly had only been listening to what the copyright groups had been saying, and just repeating their truth bending and often bullcrap claims. Some of the things i heard them say:

It is illegal to download music or movies from the internet - A plain old lie by any interpretation of the law or the enligh language.

It cost businesses £6bn last year in lost revenue - And yet most managed to make record profits still? That must be some awesome business, able to lose such a huge amount every year and still maintain or increase profits!

It hurts the honest consumer who has to pay more - Again no. There are many reasons why CD's are so damn expensive still, piracy is just one, and its impossible to quantify how much it effects sales.
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Re: Illegal downloaders 'face UK ban'

Postby ntscuser » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:21 am

Lee1001 wrote:Crossed my mind to,what was said is that they'll be soon be able to do a monthly printout on ones account showing uploads and downloads,
That should make for some interesting conversations between married couples :rofl:
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Re: Illegal downloaders 'face UK ban'

Postby cddvdheaven123 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:48 am

It wont work simple as that !!!!
They cant and wont monitor every packet from every user 24/7 and will be just as it is now other then you will have 3 hit's and then out of there -LOL
They already send warnings out if they get a report from one of the many rouge companies set up to try and monitor and inforce copywrite
Media-defender,Logistep and others getting on this form of evandance gathering for the MP@@ and RI@@.
The use of public trackers will be as ever a very risky place to use and getting tagged is far far more likley then on the private trackers but even this is wont be 100% but far far safer then say TPB or Nova -LOL
If a user wants to play russian roulett by joining a public swarm and gets tagged then so be it they will have been warned.
With no packets being inspected and even if they are the isp's are going to find it hard to work out whats legal downloads and whats not legal with the increase of legal content now being downloaded from TV and music websites and there is also a very large increase in legal downloads even from the like's of TPB as many artists now are starting to see the power of releasing content to trackers.

Where as the public in other countries fight such new laws when debated by there goverments the UK will just site back and accept it -LOL
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Re: Illegal downloaders 'face UK ban'

Postby sonnentier » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:19 am

I find it amazing how similar the "three strike rule" is in France and in the proposal for England.

In England:
Users suspected of wrongly downloading films or music will receive a warning e-mail for the first offence, a suspension for the second infringement and the termination of their internet contract if caught a third time, under the most likely option to emerge from discussions about the new law.
http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol ... 353387.ece

In France:
A three-way agreement has been reached between the French government, ISPs and the music/film industry to develop an anti-piracy system in France. The system is based on a “three strikes rule”. Illegal downloaders will receive two warnings that they are being monitored and that their downloading must be stopped. After a third time, their broadband access will be cut off.
http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Fran ... stem-89728

It really makes the impression that the lobby talked to the governments and told them what they think is sensible, speaking about their carefully developed 'three strike rule' and how it makes sense to everyone.

I think cutting the internet is not adequate. There is more than just piracy that you can do on the net. Is it fair to take away discussions, reading news and mailing, from people that commited copyright violations? They could at most filter the line, but taking away the whole internet includes more than just so called 'illegal downloading'. And it's not like filesharers need to be blocked away as being a high risk to the other netizens, they don't harm others despite potentially lowering the revenue of the all famous media industry.
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Re: Illegal downloaders 'face UK ban'

Postby loftie » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:50 pm

I really have no idea how they think they can do this, there are so many difficulties its going to be near impossible.

Can they actually tell the difference between you looking at an website or downloading from a site from BT or P2P?

If you are downloading off BT how do will they know its a copyrighted file, you could be downloading free music, open source software, free movies, updates, demos and numerous other things.

Where will it stop? There is copyright material on youtube and stage6, do they plan on stopping people for viewing them? How do they plan on determining the difference between a kid acting like he's using a lightsaber and the newest episode or Reaper or Skins etc

You could just connect to a VPN, how do they plan on seeing what your doing if you're connected to one.

The news just had an example of how music used to be shared, back when LP's were in. They showed one person buying a record and then loads of people dancing to it as its playing, isn't this breaking the law by publicly airing the music?

At the end of the day, I cant see this working, and neither can a fair few of the 'experts'. Lets just hope they review the proposal, and realise its absurd.
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Re: Illegal downloaders 'face UK ban'

Postby KungfuTornado » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:15 pm

Hooray for democracy.. UK is a shining example !!

NOT :pissedoff:
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Re: Illegal downloaders 'face UK ban'

Postby loftie » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:21 pm

Actually, is it even illegal to download? I thought only uploading was illegal?
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Re: Illegal downloaders 'face UK ban'

Postby zbeast » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:57 pm

Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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Re: Illegal downloaders 'face UK ban'

Postby thunderstick » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:39 pm

Wow.

The continuing saga of the Americanization of the UK.
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